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[R&F] Civ of the Week: Germany

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Nov 16, 2018.

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Next week's Civ? (Industrial & Modern Eras)

Poll closed Nov 23, 2018.
  1. America

    5 vote(s)
    17.9%
  2. Brazil

    5 vote(s)
    17.9%
  3. France

    3 vote(s)
    10.7%
  4. Russia

    5 vote(s)
    17.9%
  5. Scotland

    6 vote(s)
    21.4%
  6. Orr-straaar-leah

    4 vote(s)
    14.3%
  1. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    I may play one more Germany game to really maximize production. I'll finish my current one first. It's not something I would do every game, but might be fun once in a while just to see how high you can get it. Like with Korea I like to see how high I can get my science. I'm hoping with the new expansion they can give us a true gold making civ (maybe Mansa Musa) and I can really push my gold generation as high as I can get it. Egypt, Cree, Poland, And England can generate good gold, but I want more. Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. :)

    I appreciate the pictures. Thanks.
     
  2. Wyvern_Parade

    Wyvern_Parade Chieftain

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    After seeing some of the Commercial Hub/Hansa layout posts here I decided to load up a game and see how well I could maximize it. After 2 or 3 reloads I finally got a nice open map.


    This is a 5 city circle configuration, all of which have CH and Hansas connected in the middle. Then I added more districts around them as I see fit.


    My capital's Hansa in the middle is touching 5 CHs. At least 2 of the other Hansas are making 16 production per turn as well. (I'm running Craftsmen to get these values of course.)

    Germany is super fun to play as, particularly if you get an isolated start and can just sim city for a while. As others have mentioned, I feel that their main strength is being able to turn flatland into decent production cities which opens up a lot more options for where you want to settle. I would say that they are slightly weak early in the game before the Hansas get up, but after that you can really roll with them. Building a bunch of Commercial hubs also lets you get nice Free Inquiry science boosts if you can manage a Medieval golden age. You can see in this game I was over 200 science by turn 70 (late Medieval era on online speed).
     
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  3. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    I love Germany. LOVE them. Easily one of my favorite - and one of my 2 highest scoring playthroughs (the other being Mongolia, which was so high simply because of a massive sprawling empire thanks to a bloody war with Gilgamesh, and he had some nice wonders!). The Hansa is easily my favorite unique in the whole game, and I ended up being a commercial/industrial powerhouse.
     
  4. Leathaface

    Leathaface Warlord

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    Germany is a very fun Civ to play as. The extra military slot is very helpful, you can have both Conscription and Agoge slotted in at all times in the early game. Plus as has been said, Classical Republic is a good choice of government for Frederick.

    The Hansa is so fun to play with, half production speed and can give insane yields. Plus it doesn't take up a district slot due to Germany being able to get a district space for free.

    John Curtin has declared war on me frequently too. If he is nearby it's pretty much a safe bet he will declare.
     
  5. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    Note that this has the added benefit of lowering the production cost/time of districts. If you place a district and change the production in your city, the production cost is locked in when you place it (so when you return to the district, the cost will not have increased as your empire has grown). With this ability, you can immediately place your first two districts and build (or not) one of them waiting until you are ready to finish the second.
     
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  6. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    One thing about the Hansa, since it requires resource tile and not mines and quarries for adjacency bonuses, it runs against the "harvest all bonus resources" strategy that many prefer. If you harvest those resources, your Hansa will be weaker for it. Maybe that's worth it? Sometimes perhaps.
     
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  7. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I am familiar with the strategy to chop all the trees. I am not familiar with the strategy to harvest all bonus resources. Care to elaborate?
     
  8. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    It's pretty much the same line of thinking. Harvesting the bonus resources right away for a bolus of one sort of yield provides more strategic benefit than dozens of turns worth of slightly better yields if worked because of the snowball effect.
     
  9. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Stone in particular is very valuable, as it generates more production per chop than trees.

    Cow and sheep give a mix of production and food, so are like jungle, but again, with higher total yield than jungle.

    Crab and copper give a bunch of gold, which can be helpful if you need the funds to buy something critical.
     
  10. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    Tech rush to apprenticeship will help alot with your production, as Germany you can pretty much just beeline to apprenticship as the Techs on the way unlocks districts which exploit the german ability to have more districts. The +1 production from mines is a major buff such early in the game and hansa helps alot as well.

    You can save your resources to the end game, the longer you withhold harvesting the more production they will produce then you harvest, so even while it is clear that early production is more valuable than late production, atleast there is a way to justify not harvesting straight away.
     
  11. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    Be still my beating heart

    For most bonus resources you can rely on giving up the 1 point of bonus yield for your chop. But with Hansa you're sacrificing the extra yield point plus the 2 production it brings the hansa, for 3 total. This actually impacts the economics a little since it greatly delays when you should chop. Imagine if stone gave 3 production and the same harvest level- few would trade 3 production per turn for 100 hammers now halfway through the game.

    But if you build a big blob of hansa/ch between cities, The hansas will be mostly surrounded by other districts and only a few spots for resources. The implication is that most of your land area and thus most of your resources are still available to receive shipments of chop. Is giving up maybe a resource per city (but getting extra production out of it) that noticeable when you're gonna harvest the other ones anyways, and you have extra production from Hansas anyways?

    Now I'm waiting for the next expansion to give us a civ ability that's like goddess of the harvest but grants science and culture. Then we will know what it means to be OP!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2018
  12. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    nice. I'll call it: "Hansa porn" :)

    Now I definitely want to try another game and really just go all out.
     
  13. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Finished my first game. I have a higher opinion of them than before I started. I really thought they couldn't compete with Netherlands. In the end, my science victory was only 11 turns slower than my Dutch science victory (under the same difficulty and map settings). 4 turns slower than the Dutch when I repeated same map settings (I played the Dutch twice). They are kind of a fun civ. Like I said above, the ultimate builder civ. They require a little more work than the Dutch, but the payoff is there, so that is satisfying. So far, only Korea and Netherlands has been faster for science victory with these map and difficulty settings.

    I'm anxious to start a new game with them to really see how I can maximize production to insane levels. I won't do an efficient run (I'm doing this to compare them to other civ of the weeks), rather concentrate on stretching the game out and maximizing production.

    Look at that beautiful mountain range! I'll call it... the alps. :) A lot of unworkable tiles, but I did like this map. Teddy was my only obstacle. Those mountains certainly helped my science victory time.
    Spoiler :


    I actually did manage a religion this game, even though I wasn't going for one. Conquering Armagh gave me the only great prophet points. The AI's in my game didn't go for religion too much, and Arabia got theirs early. I never had much faith production. I chose Work ethic for the +1% production and Stewardship for the +1 science/+1 gold for campus/commercial hub. If going religious route, these seem to be good beliefs to go for (in my honest opinion). I chose Judaism, because I like irony.

    This paragraph is mostly for my reference. I figured my total production and average production per city. Every single one of my cities had a hansa with workshop (only 4 or so went to factory/power plant) except one recent city flip just built a Hansa, but had no commercial hub yet. I realize I did not maximize Magnus: Vertical Integration as well as I should have, I would have had to buy the factory where my money had to be spent for builders for royal society/spaceship parts. Ideally I would have made my powerhouse Ruhr valley city in the center of my empire, but it didn't work out that way.
    952.9 total production
    15: number of cities
    63.526666 average per city
    My highest was only 114.2. Like I mentioned above, I want to work on this to get this even higher. All these totals are with no production focus. Next game will be much more focused on placing districts efficiently, even if I have to wait to get enough gold to buy tiles.

    Interesting thing this game was I did not get a single goody hut. I don't think that has ever happened to me.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  14. eleven11

    eleven11 Chieftain

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    That's because John Curtain is a psychopath. There I said it and it needed to be said. He has the most disordered, conflicting, incoherent set of contradicting AI rules in the game.
     
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  15. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    Well, I though i would get in on the Germany game fun. Small continents. Standard everything.
    On the turn I won:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2018-11-20_15-40-33.png

    Terrible location long term for the capital because that terrain south of it leaves no room for farms; otherwise i could have gotten to 30 pop. I started very close to korea (Gyeongju to the northwest of aachen) and gilgamesh was also on my continent. OH COME ON. Gilga I just kept doing friendship with as he took 4 CS right away. Seondok seemed to have a barb problem to her west and i was thankfully able to cheese out a warrior rush on her very early. I had happened to build a holy site and somehow picked up a religion (gilga built stonehenge, spain founded something, only spain bothered to convert things) and snagged work ethic and crusader to be true to form. Once I took korea and popped a religion, I just went ham spamming out magnus settlers.

    Gilga controlled more cities than me for a while, going as far north as Ur you can see in the top right. I plopped 4 cities around it in a heroic age and converted it via loyalty. Gilga, ruling over Ziggurat Kingdom, beat me to Big ben, although i beat him to corps and was able to beat him down a little when he eventually surprise warred me (took uruk and freed 2 CS.)

    Please note from the first image that I'm only running half my TR slots because it's so micro heavy. Most cities have one route going to the capital for +8/8 thanks to magnus, plaza, districts, and cards. So I'm not stacking routes everywhere to get these numbers.

    Anyways, onto the districts. The capital cluster:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2018-11-20_15-51-19.png
    This is the core region. Can't see here, but the center CH is on a hill that has coal. Supremely lucky since that benefits all 3 of those core hansas.
    Nuremburg was a dump city just used for the CH, so it's hansa is off to the side, but still mages a respectable 10. My goal was to make 3 strong core cities.


    Northeast Cluster:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2018-11-20_16-0-37.png
    Regensburg has the 22 Hansa. It also has st basil's. Note that I am running Colonial taxes and have Casa Del Cont., and communism, so it has a 45% production modifier including the south pole station bonus and amenities. Communism's bonus doesn't dsiplay, so I guess technically it's at 60%. Note in particular that this formation allows for 4 cities to create a 4CH hansa and guarantee 2CH to every other Hansa. The 4 city setup in the capital allows for 3 cities to have a 3 CH, but then 1 city is stuck with 1 CH. Depends on what cities you want to favor.

    Arctic Cluster:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2018-11-20_16-5-3.png
    One phenomenal late game usage of germany is that hansa's terrain independent production generation makes getting a decent Amundsen Scott city up isn't so hard. That's 10% more production everywhere!


    On turn ~237 I realized I needed to win so i built a spaceport in my capital and cranked out eh projects; picked up goddard and the +1500 engineer if push out the last mars pieces in 1 turn each. I could have won sooner had I been a little more attentive. I'm pretty convinced I could have won 15-20 turns sooner if i was actually focusing on science victory instead of developing more cities.
    I'm running these cards:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2018-11-20_16-10-58.png

    I had just slotted new deal and finished maracana hence all the cities have a flood of amenities. If i really wanted to juice up the numbers, what I'd do is hit next turn for about 30 more turns, fall into dark age info era, and then slot robber barons instead of econ union to get that delicious +25% prod for every city with a factory (all of them.) Side note: I feel communism and facism should each lose 1 military card. Commie for 1 wildcard and Fasc for 1 eco card or wildcard. It's just silly that democracy has such a good distribution and communism is tight on wildcards given the introduction of legacy and dark age cards.

    I also got Tesla, Watt, and da Vinci under the mausoleum. I also picked up hypatia, newton, and einstein thanks to some early campuses in key spots. If i wasn't so lucky i might not have made this post! I did reroll a couple times to get something that looked workable in an evening, though.

    Here's a list of cities and production:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2018-11-20_17-6-44.png


    Look how crappy uruk is. I even put down a hansa for 8 production there. (it has big ben, he got Phil the Renaissance wonder engineer.) With development and another 30 turns i could have gotten the majority to 100. Magdeburg has Ruhr. Aachen is okay, but if it had a little better terrain, I could do way better. I've had Germany games where I exceed 4-500 in the capital at the very end with a combination of dark age cards, communism, etc. Communism and work ethic combine really well in big cities because you get +1.2 production and +1% production per citizen, so its makes a nice curve. I actually think communism's bonus should be nerfed to 0.5 and given to all cities, and give democracy a stronger governor gated bonus for the districts.

    Today's Gathering Storm announcement makes me think Germany will get even better with the addition of so much late game stuff requiring productive Hansas and more district slots. HANSA FOREVER
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well that's an intresting start.



    Emperor/Fractal/Standard Size

    992078146
    992078147

    Start has potential for Petra, and maybe Itza, but that's not that great. Unfortunately,I thought some spots were rivers which they were not so placement was messed up.... gotta remember to place hansas facing other cities.... not away. Sumeria was nearby and I don't like warring with him so it got sorta cramped.

    Went for my usual oracle/theater square/campus start. As Germany, a commercial hub and Hansa fit in easily while boosting mathematics. Meanwhile Genghis attacked while I was preoccupied attacking Macedon.

    I also finished Itza somehow; but there wasn't much rainforest left. At least the few rainforest tiles were good, and gave campus adjancency.

    Spoiler :


    Meanwhile took out Norway along the way
    Spoiler :


    I can't fit Ruhr in my city anymore. Normally, I wouldn't care, because even at this level of production it isn't good enough but going for the memes here; thus Berlin was made to shove a Hansa in. Now my capital can finally do it.

    Spoiler :


    Capital ended like this, which wasn't bad, but I think we could do better.

    Spoiler :


    Clicked one more turn for a bit...



    In the end I failed to make any good Hansas, but at least the Free Imperial Cities was vital to this setup so I didn't have to sacrifice much. if I didn't insist on keeping +3 for the campuses it would have been much easier but science is more important anyways.

    Vertical Integration is still unimpressive to me, just because there's many other promotions you could get. Reyna and Amani are more likely to get more mileage out of those hubs anyways.

    Oh yea, I got every single Great Writer that game. Better learn how to read German!
     

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  17. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    As much as my opinion of Germany increased with this Civ of the Week, I realize still how much they struggle compared to a certain Rise and Fall Civ. After playing Scotland, and realizing how much Scotland blows away Germany with production. I would like to discuss Scotland more in Scotland civ of the week thread, but suffice it to say, Scotland is better at production than Germany. And from what I found out, better at Science than Korea. I suppose we'll never have any balancing of the Civs, and that's okay. But it's just strange that as far as I am concerned, Scotland is the premier civ for production AND science. I kind of felt that way late last winter and early spring, but my recent game confirms it. I ended up with the same number of cities as my Germany game above (I still never finished the other one I started). I didn't plan on having the same number of cities, it just worked out that way. I had 2 settlers (from Statue of Liberty) sitting doing nothing, because I really didn't want more cities.

    My scotland game: edit: these numbers are without Ecommerce
    1261.3 total production (at a significantly earlier year for my time of Science victory even)
    15 cities
    84.09 per city
    edit: With ecommerce the numbers are:
    1281.3/15=85.42

    My Germany game above:
    952.9 total production
    15: number of cities
    63.526666 average per city

    Yeah I know maps can change how games play out. I did conquer 2 cities in ancient era, and had one capital flip to me late in the game. But this is saying something. These civs have vastly different power rankings. Maybe one day Firaxis will make Germany great again. Or make Germany a great production civ again. I know I didn't plan my cities as best as I could above in my Germany game, but Scotland requires almost no planning. Just get your cities to ecstatic and it's all done for you. I still like Germany, I just would like the more if they were the premier civ at production, no questions asked. I may start another Germany game to see if it can be beat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  18. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I actually think Scotland is pretty weak. That bonus doesn't really scale well until later on.
     
  19. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    There's clearly a lot of variance between games; and while one would submit that the Scottish ability pushes the player to build IZs and Campuses, I would be hard pressed to believe that +10% production in ecstatic cities only will be substantially better than having hansas and effectively cheaper districts.

    Let's just use your numbers for a minute.
    Here's what I mean:
    upload_2018-11-26_17-53-6.png
    Now, the question is, after accounting for the extra boost on an ecstatic city scotland has (i'm assuming all your cities were ecstatic) why do your scottish cities on average have an extra 12 base production than your german ones did? Scotland doesn't have an ability that gives them more base hammers, so it must be the map, city placement, trade routes, etc.

    Let's use a little clearer example. Suppose we have scotland and the dutch. Same map seed, identical city sites. Who can achieve a higher base production? Well, for any IZ scotland can place, the dutch can place the same IZ, or they may find a better spot next to a river. (They may also be able to place some polders where scotland can't build anything.) So we would expect that on the same map, the dutch would have better base production but never worse- because they could mirror every single scottish move and sometimes come out ahead with the rivers.

    Okay, so, with germany, same map seed, etc, the difference comes down to the tradeoff between the extra ecstatic boost and the advantage the hansa can generate over an IZ.
    Ecstatic difference:
    An ecstatic communist city has a base 1.25 production multiplier. A scottish version of that is 1.35. The actual advantage is 1.35/1.25 or 8%.
    What would you say an average city IZ spot is? 3 mines? We'll say 6 production including craftsmen card. Any two german cities that are within 5 tiles can always get +10 hansas. Obviously, this thread details superior combinations so i will just be very conservative and say 12 is the average achievable. So this back of the envelope figuring says that the hansa advantage is +6.

    Is +6 better than +8%? Well, using some algebra, we can deduce that
    1.35*X = 1.25*(X+6) > 1.08X=X+6 > X=6/.08
    are equivalent when a city has 75 base production. More base production and the dge goes to scotland, less and it would go to germany. Neither of your games had average cities reach this level. I am tying one hand behind the german back, though, since you can do much better with hansas than a puny +12.

    BUT, the scottish advantage declines when we add in some other potential factors (work ethic, Amundsen-Scott, colonial cards, casa del cont. bonus, robber barons) because that diminishes the relative boost +10% is granting. If you see the numbers i posted, even with half my trade route slots full, I was still pulling an average of 129.9 in my top 15 cities. But even overall, only rostock, hamburg, and uruk produced less than your average scottish city, and those were because they were newly founded and a captured Ai city.

    The actual production masters are probably either the aussies abusing liberation bonus+outback stations (highest prod number on the screen) or the aztecs' district rushing ability (synthetically converts a post serfdom builder to 75% of a district cost,) which is stupidly good. Themed Kongo artifacts can also be pretty potent, but not like those other two and it's a lot harder to do reliably.
    The german advantage of having production advantage captured in a district, though, is that it isn't terrain or population bound to the same extent, which makes it very reliable.
     
  20. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    I didn't have the same map seed, but I ran communism both times. It was the same map type, map size, difficulty, map settings, speed, and everything else. One thing that could account for some difference, but not all the difference is my German cities were not all ecstatic as I did not prioritize that. My Scottish game had built the Pyramids and one city was able to get Petra, but it wasn't that great a Petra city, at least not until very late when aluminum and Uranium showed up on flat desert. That desert city did have some advantage with Kilamanjaro, but many of the Kilamanjaro tiles covered desert, so it wasn't that great, and I mistakenly built Colosseum on one of those desert tiles, but it was optimum placing otherwise, so I really didn't have other options for Colosseum.

    All of my Scotland games have been like this. I remember out performing Korea both times I played them last Feb/March. And this time out performing Germany in production. I even had one less or possibly two less industrial zones. Most only had workshops same as my Germany game.
     

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