Civ-specific Great People

[merijn_v1]

Considering that the Netherlands are unlikely to spawn many great people (they start late after all), so I think it should be doable. Artists, Scientists, maybe Engineers should be easy, prophets a little harder (some protestant guys?). I don't know about spies (well, the guy who killed Willem of Orange) or generals (Michiel de Ruyter, perhaps some others). If we get 5 in each category, some more merchants perhaps (simply guys who discovered islands or whatever), we should be fine.

He was French.

 

[merijn_v1]

Some people that could be the Dutch Great Spies (I also updated the list on post 37):

Adriaan van Campen
Claes Michielszoon Bontenbal
Klaas Annink
Jan van Leiden
Jacob Frederik Muller
Willem van der Marck
Hendrick Danielszoon Slatiuis

 

[civ_king]

According to the Dutch Wikipedia, Jan Breydel was a resistance fighter. In the vanilla game, Joan d'Arc is a prophet to. I thought they are in about the same category. So I made him a Great Prophet.

Same story for Pieter de Coninck. (He was a "team" with Jan Breydel. Together they stood at the base of a revolt that resulted in the Batttle of the Golden Spurs)

On the other hand, they lived almost 200 years before the spawn of the Dutch. That's also a reason to not include them.

Jeanne d'Arc i a French national hero, she was sent by God to liberate France from perfidious Albion through visions (prophecy) at the very least she was a godsend. It's not just because she was fighting, it's why she was fighting that was important

 

[dragodon64]

On the other hand, they lived almost 200 years before the spawn of the Dutch. That's also a reason to not include them.

I think a Netherlander living in the 14th century is totally fine for GP lists. I would even say that Flemings count as Dutch for this purpose.

 

[merijn_v1]

I also counted any Flemish people as Dutch. The Dutch controlled Flanders for a long time.

 

[AbsintheRed]

According to the Dutch Wikipedia, Jan Breydel was a resistance fighter. In the vanilla game, Joan d'Arc is a prophet to. I thought they are in about the same category. So I made him a Great Prophet.

Same story for Pieter de Coninck. (He was a "team" with Jan Breydel. Together they stood at the base of a revolt that resulted in the Batttle of the Golden Spurs)

Yes, she was a resistance fighter, but Joan d'Arc is on the list because she thought she was on her godly mission, and she is a saint of the Catholic Church
I really don't think anyone should get in as a Great Prophet because he/she lead a revolution or was a resistance fighter.
Sry, but probably it's better to leave them out

On the other hand, they lived almost 200 years before the spawn of the Dutch. That's also a reason to not include them.

I don't see this as a problem at all
In some cases we can even add a few 19th century GPs, it's still much better than having someone from another nationality
I'm especially thinking of great engineers/architects, it's hard to find enough fitting ones before 1800

I also counted any Flemish people as Dutch. The Dutch controlled Flanders for a long time.

Flemish people can also count as Burgundian too (for the mod at least)
Or am I wrong with this? Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, just asking

 

[AbsintheRed]

Btw, we should probably leave Joan of Arc out, as she is already in as a leader
Or what's the opinion on this? Is it a problem if someone is in both as a leader and a GP?

 

[Arquebusier]

Spies
Juan de Jáuregui (First attempt to shoot William of Orange)
James "Spanish" Blake (but he also spied for England and France?)
Antonio Pérez

Blake was Irish which is pretty much English in terms of the mid-late part of this mod so, despite spying in Spain and France too I think he would marginally be better as an English spy. However i would have no real objection to him being a Spanish spy due to the nickname.

EDIT: I will try to get an England list together in the next 2 days.

 

[AbsintheRed]

EDIT: I will try to get an England list together in the next 2 days.

Sounds great!

Anyway, here is the first draft for artists
As you can see, we have quite a few missing spots here

Spoiler :

	Byzantium		Theophanes
	Arabia/Cordoba		Badi al-Zaman al-Hamadani (Arabia)
				Omar Khayyam (Persia)
				Ibn Tufail (Cordoba)
				Ibn Gharsiya (Cordoba)
	Russia/Kiev		Andrei Rublev (Russia)
				Vasily Trediakovsky (Russia)
				Maksym Berezovsky (Kiev)
				Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky (Russia)
				Alexander Sergeyevich Pushkin (Russia)
	England			William Shakespeare
				Geoffrey Chaucer
				John Milton
				John Keats
				George Gordon Byron
				Percy Bysshe Shelley
	Italy			Dante Alighieri
				Michelangelo
				Donatello
				Tiziano Vecelli
				Jacopo Tintoretto
	Dutch			Rembrandt van Rijn
				Jan van Eyck (Burgundy/Flemish)
				Johannes Vermeer
				Jacobus Vide (French/Flemish)
				Paul Rubens (Flemish)
				Frans Hals
				Joost van den Vondel
				Hieronimus Bosch
	Germany			Albrecht Durer				
				Hans Holbein
				Johann Sebastian Bach
	Austria			Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
				Joesph Haydn
	Hungary			Janus Pannonius
				Tivadar Csontvary-Kosztka
				Mihaly Munkacsy
				Ferenc Liszt
				Gyorgy Kolozsvari
				Anonymus/Bele Regis Notarius
				Andreas Pannonius
				Balint Balassi
				Gaspar Heltai
				Sandor Petofi
				Simon Kezai
				Sebestyen Tinodi Lantos
	Poland			Gallus Anonymus
				Jan Kochanowski
	Bulgaria		Naum of Preslav
			???	Ivan Alexander
	France			Moliere
				Francois Rabelais
				Alexandre Dumas
				Bernard Palissy
				Jean Racine
				Pierre Corneille
	Spain			Francisco de Goya
				El Greco
				Diego Velázquez
				Miguel de Cervantes
				Lope de Vega
				Francisco de Zurbarán
				Francisco de Quevedo
			???	Gaspar Melchor de Jovellanos
				Gaspar Sanz
				Tomás Luis de Victoria
				Bartolomé Esteban Murillo
				Luis Ponce de León
	Sweden			Carl Michael Bellman
			???	Erik Dahlberg
				David Klöcker Ehrenstrahl
				Johan Tobias Sergel
				Jean Sibelius (Finnish)
				Gustav Vigeland (Norway)
				Henrik Ibsen (Norway)

 

[AbsintheRed]

Guys, are you sure about Ivan Alexander, Gaspar Melchor de Jovellanos and Erik Dahlberg?
I only checked their wiki article, so correct me if I'm wrong, but based on that they don't really fit as Great Artists

 

[3Miro]

Ivan Alexander was a Tsar and he would be more like a scientist for the mod. He had the scribes in the monasteries write, translate and copy many books, which was promotion of science.

 

[rrosen]

I can only speak of Erik Dahlberg, but he is famous for the many engravings he made. The Wikipedia article talks about this, "In modern times, Erik Dahlbergh was best known for compiling the impressive collection of drawings called "Suecia Antiqua et Hodierna", or Ancient and Modern Sweden, published 1660-1716, and assisted Samuel Pufendorf in his "Histoire de Charles X Gustave"." It is true he was an architect as well, but I think he's more of a artist than engineer.

But if we are to extend beyond the end of the time frame of the mod, Carl Larsson (1853-1919) and Anders Zorn (1860-1920) are the iconic Swedish painters and could replace Dahlberg.

 

[Voyelles]

Please delete Alexandre Dumas from the French list as he is outside the scope of the mod. If we want a 6th name I would suggest Pierre de Ronsard.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Ivan Alexander was a Tsar and he would be more like a scientist for the mod. He had the scribes in the monasteries write, translate and copy many books, which was promotion of science.

I can only speak of Erik Dahlberg, but he is famous for the many engravings he made. The Wikipedia article talks about this, "In modern times, Erik Dahlbergh was best known for compiling the impressive collection of drawings called "Suecia Antiqua et Hodierna", or Ancient and Modern Sweden, published 1660-1716, and assisted Samuel Pufendorf in his "Histoire de Charles X Gustave"." It is true he was an architect as well, but I think he's more of a artist than engineer.

But if we are to extend beyond the end of the time frame of the mod, Carl Larsson (1853-1919) and Anders Zorn (1860-1920) are the iconic Swedish painters and could replace Dahlberg.

Okay, Ivan Alexander will be moved to be a GS, while Dahlberg stays as a GA

Please delete Alexandre Dumas from the French list as he is outside the scope of the mod. If we want a 6th name I would suggest Pierre de Ronsard.

I don't think it's a problem if we have a few GPs from the 19th century, as I said it will probably needed for Great Engineers at least
Anyway, there is no cap like 5 or 6, we want as many fitting names as possible
I added Ronsard of course, and I would prefer to keep Dumas as well

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm not sure originally who made the GP lists for the mod, and don't want to hurt anyone, but I just can't beleive how many bugs are there.
And these are just the remaining bugs after a few years, many-many bugs were already corrected based on feedback
This is just from the GS list, and I'm not even mentioning arabian names
TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_ISSAC_NEWTON, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_ANTOINE_LEVOISIER, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_GREGOR_TSAMBLAK, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_FILIPPO_BRUNNELLESCHI, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_MICHAEL_SEDZIWJ, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_OKTAY_SANANOGLU
The GA list was even worse btw...

 

[Michael Vick]

For Melchor de Jovellanos I was between artist or scholar. He was important but I guess not entirely suited for either. I will remove him and add a different artist to the list.

Also, what do people think of changing "Great Prophet" to something else? Not a single one of these people was a "prophet". "Saint" would be the best but then it's awkward for the Muslim nations. "Great Mystic" would be the best name for a Muslim great prophet, but if we can't divide the two, "Great Mystic" is better for Christian civs than "Great Prophet".

 

[Voyelles]

For Melchor de Jovellanos I was between artist or scholar. He was important but I guess not entirely suited for either. I will remove him and add a different artist to the list.

Also, what do people think of changing "Great Prophet" to something else? Not a single one of these people was a "prophet". "Saint" would be the best but then it's awkward for the Muslim nations. "Great Mystic" would be the best name for a Muslim great prophet, but if we can't divide the two, "Great Mystic" is better for Christian civs than "Great Prophet".

I was thinking of this, and I reckoned Great Philosopher would be the way to go, as it fits in holy people as well as more secular ethical thinkers. Thus, people like Voltaire, Rousseau, Hobbes, Erasmus or Locke would have a clear fit somewhere.

 

[Voyelles]

I don't think it's a problem if we have a few GPs from the 19th century, as I said it will probably needed for Great Engineers at least
Anyway, there is no cap like 5 or 6, we want as many fitting names as possible
I added Ronsard of course, and I would prefer to keep Dumas as well

I have no problem whatsoever about the XIXth century popping in when needed, it's just that pre-industrialisation Great Artists are ten a penny for a civ like France so there is no real need to extend the epoch, if you see what I mean.

 

[merijn_v1]

Yes, she was a resistance fighter, but Joan d'Arc is on the list because she thought she was on her godly mission, and she is a saint of the Catholic Church
I really don't think anyone should get in as a Great Prophet because he/she lead a revolution or was a resistance fighter.
Sry, but probably it's better to leave them out

[...]

I don't see this as a problem at all
In some cases we can even add a few 19th century GPs, it's still much better than having someone from another nationality
I'm especially thinking of great engineers/architects, it's hard to find enough fitting ones before 1800

[...]

Flemish people can also count as Burgundian too (for the mod at least)
Or am I wrong with this? Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, just asking

Ok. You can leave those 2 out. (To be honest, I wasn't sure myself if those were good. But I tried to get at least 5 in each category)

I think it depends whether a Fleming should be Dutch or Burgundian. Maybe the one of whom the name sounds Dutch count for the Dutch, and whos name sounds French count for the Burgundians. (It's only a suggestion)

Btw, we should probably leave Joan of Arc out, as she is already in as a leader
Or what's the opinion on this? Is it a problem if someone is in both as a leader and a GP?

I also think that all GP that are also a Leader should be removed.

I'm not sure originally who made the GP lists for the mod, and don't want to hurt anyone, but I just can't beleive how many bugs are there.
And these are just the remaining bugs after a few years, many-many bugs were already corrected based on feedback
This is just from the GS list, and I'm not even mentioning arabian names
TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_ISSAC_NEWTON, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_ANTOINE_LEVOISIER, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_GREGOR_TSAMBLAK, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_FILIPPO_BRUNNELLESCHI, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_MICHAEL_SEDZIWJ, TXT_KEY_GREAT_PERSON_OKTAY_SANANOGLU
The GA list was even worse btw...

Another reason why the GP list can use an update. (BTW, jessiecat made the list long ago)

 

[Michael Vick]

I was thinking of this, and I reckoned Great Philosopher would be the way to go, as it fits in holy people as well as more secular ethical thinkers. Thus, people like Voltaire, Rousseau, Hobbes, Erasmus or Locke would have a clear fit somewhere.

I thought of them all as Great Scholars. Probably not Erasmus, but the rest would fit OK as scholars, IMO. The more I think about it, it's probably fine to describe a Christian Saint as a mystic. Some saints are even described as "Mystics" in wiki articles. And conveniently, "mystic" is the best possible term for a great Muslim holy man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_the_Cross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_of_Sweden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_of_Norwich