Civ VI Civ and City-State Symbology

Eh. Technically that's the exact definition of the letter, but there's a lot of added symbology to that symbol. As the last letter of the Greek alphabet, it is often used as a symbol of the ultimate or the highest, such as the Bible referring to the "Alpha and Omega".

Personally, though, I like the idea of using an olive branch for Greece. I drew up a while ago what I feel to be the best final list of Civs with their logos, and while I know they're not the best and some (not even me) may not agree with all my choice of symbols, I think the Greek one came out good.

As half Greek, omega is fine, however I don't see it as more than just a letter. Yes there are meanings but Greek culture as well as the language is so simplistic that many words have as many meanings as 'run' in English. For many Greeks, omega more often means 'last' than it does first. Ancient Greeks used letters as numbers, & we know where omega falls in the list.

For me personally, when I think Greek, I think spiral or evil eye. Greek spiral [double, triple & wave], box spiral, owl [from Athens], Corinthian helmet [from Sparta], labrys [from Thrace], Vergina Sun [from Makedonia], fulmen [from Epirus], octopus spiral [from Kyklades], minotaur [from Krete], lion coin [from Lydia]... My only personal issue with the olive branch is it can be easily mixed with Roman, otherwise it is fine. After all Cyprus pays sweet tribute on its flag.

Eh. Given the country's history with bullfighting, the iconic bull from Picasso's Guernica, and the Osborne Bull, I think it's a perfectly cromulent icon. Yeah, the Osborne thing may have been an advertisement, but it became such a big part of Spanish culture that the people actually found a way of keeping them when they were threatened. Of course, there may be better symbols, but it's perfectly acceptible.

My half-Puerto Rican side thinks bulls when Spain comes to mind. Bulls & mass murderers, be it Colón or Franco. That being said, symbols should be used by the appropriate culture in order for it to represent them. Perhaps a castle to represent Castilla. I take issue with the waves for Lisbon because it's on the Spanish flag as well. They could have used the armillary sphere or a dragon.

:king:
 
Why does Preslav's symbol resemble a sea turtle? Is it a historical symbol for the Bulgarian empire?

There was a bug where Preslav's and Nan Madol's icons were reversed. Preslav's has been fixed in the most recent livestream.
 
There was a bug where Preslav's and Nan Madol's icons were reversed. Preslav's has been fixed in the most recent livestream.

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I was thinking the turtle shouldn't have been Nan Madol's symbol.
 
Other than the fact I'm also pretty sure the symbol for Hattusas is a simplified version of the Sun Disk, this list is absolutely fantastic - thank you for making it DJ Tanner!

Looking at the current list I'm expecting Arabia and Russia will probably have the same colours and symbols as they did in Civ V (Arabia's is basically a given, and with Germany using the Iron Cross again it leaves Russia open to use the Romanov Eagle and the yellow/black colour scheme). The only one I'm not sure about is Sumeria. I'm not sure they'll use the bull head they had in V with Spain's symbol being somewhat similar.
 
Other than the fact I'm also pretty sure the symbol for Hattusas is a simplified version of the Sun Disk, this list is absolutely fantastic - thank you for making it DJ Tanner!

Looking at the current list I'm expecting Arabia and Russia will probably have the same colours and symbols as they did in Civ V (Arabia's is basically a given, and with Germany using the Iron Cross again it leaves Russia open to use the Romanov Eagle and the yellow/black colour scheme). The only one I'm not sure about is Sumeria. I'm not sure they'll use the bull head they had in V with Spain's symbol being somewhat similar.


Thanks!

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, that one is the only one I can't pick exactly what they were going for. Basically it came down to evidence majority. The crossing bars would suggest Sun Disk as that is not something you'd expect on a wheel. But the central hub point, and the use of major(thicker) and minor lines suggest wheel as neither were used in the Sun Disk (in particular the most 'famous' one lacks all those elements and it also wasn't even round, more of a semicircle). So 2-1 I went with the wheel, but just my opinion.
 
My half-Puerto Rican side thinks bulls when Spain comes to mind. Bulls & mass murderers, be it Colón or Franco. That being said, symbols should be used by the appropriate culture in order for it to represent them. Perhaps a castle to represent Castilla. I take issue with the waves for Lisbon because it's on the Spanish flag as well. They could have used the armillary sphere or a dragon.

Having in mind that Columbus didn't even know what he discovered, I wouldn't necessarily call him a mass murderer, the Castilian Conquistadores that followed him could be.

Although the Crown of Castile is what most people think of Spain culturally and historically (it was the one that colonised America, sent the "Conquistadors", founded first the Inquisition and so on...), at the times of Philip II the Crown of Aragon and its countries was the other half of the Spanish Monarchy in the Iberian Peninsula. So the Castle, wouldn't really represent it.

As I said before, the Burgundy Cross would make more sense, as was the official flag of the Spanish Empire (and it's easy to add as an icon). Besides in most of the Crown of Aragon there was no wide tradition of bullfighting, to the point that it's forbidden in some of its territories nowadays, for instance Catalonia.

I really think that using the bull for Spain is a really huge mistake due to the political loaded implications it has (basically nowadays the bull represents a certain political view of Spain, not the most democratic one).
 
My half-Puerto Rican side thinks bulls when Spain comes to mind. Bulls & mass murderers, be it Colón or Franco.

Regarding the bulls, that comes from Brand Spain.

Regarding Colón and call him genocidal comes from the antiSpanishness. I leave two links that I recommend you read: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiespañolismo and https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsión_de_los_españoles_de_América.

About what Franco, war between fascism, communism and capitalism is still very recent, but call genocidal to Franco ... officially he is not and I recommend you read this where objectively speaking on this issue and it is very interesting: http://historiasdehispania.blogspot.com.es/2010/04/fue-el-franquismo-un-genocidio.html

Although the Crown of Castile is what most people think of Spain culturally and historically (it was the one that colonised America, sent the "Conquistadors", founded first the Inquisition and so on...), at the times of Philip II the Crown of Aragon and its countries was the other half of the Spanish Monarchy in the Iberian Peninsula. So the Castle, wouldn't really represent it.

As I said before, the Burgundy Cross would make more sense, as was the official flag of the Spanish Empire (and it's easy to add as an icon). Besides in most of the Crown of Aragon there was no wide tradition of bullfighting, to the point that it's forbidden in some of its territories nowadays, for instance Catalonia.

I really think that using the bull for Spain is a really huge mistake due to the political loaded implications it has (basically nowadays the bull represents a certain political view of Spain, not the most democratic one).


Regarding the Castle, yes, it is a symbol of Castile, but somehow the castle is for Spain as fleur de lis is for France: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heráldica_de_Castilla#Propagaci.C3.B3n

Regarding banned bullfighting in Catalonia and other regions, it is for ideological reasons (nationalists, animalistic, etc).

About what the bull is the symbol of the extreme right in Spain, in Spain the far right has no representation, no influence no anything, and hardly anyone sees it as a symbol of extreme right. The bull is a tourist symbol since late 20th century, there is no getting around it: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neofascismo_en_España
 
Buenos Aires – The sun symbol is the Sun of May. The Sun of May is the national emblem of Argentina and Uruguay and appears on both countries’ flags. It is in reference to the May Revolution marking their independence from the Spanish Empire.
You got this mostly right, but a couple of corrections:
  • The Sun of May was also a reference to the native peoples and particularly the Inca sun god, Inti.
  • The May Revolution was a first step, but the actual, formal declaration of independence took place six years later.
 
Regarding Colón and call him genocidal comes from the antiSpanishness.

The Native American Spanish genocide is debatable. It would take a long post, as there's a strong debate in the Anthropology faculties, what is sure is that the Spanish colonisation provoked more than a million native deaths. Also sure is that Columbus himself wasn't a mass murderer, only a merely "gold-digger" explorer, as when he died he still thought that he had been in the Eastern Indias, not in America.

Second subject, Franco's regime was the culprit of a mass killing state-organised campaign after the Spanish Civil War, the numbers are still not clear as archaeologist find new reminds every year, so far dozens of thousands. Unlike for instance the Republican gov, that although in its territories existed a lot of random murders, were not actually organised by the gov. I actually researched some of them.

Regarding the Castle, yes, it is a symbol of Castile, but somehow the castle is for Spain as fleur de lis is for France: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heráldica_de_Castilla#Propagaci.C3.B3n

That's quite debatable once more. And clearly the Castilian Castle can't really be compared to the extensive use of the French Fleur de Lis (which BTW, the Fleur is used in many Spanish Bourbon seals). Even the Kingdom' of Leon's lion has seen more usage or the Barcelona's dynasty 4 red "bars" under a golden background (which was used by Charles III to create what's nowadays Spanish flag).

Regarding banned bullfighting in Catalonia and other regions, it is for ideological reasons (nationalists, animalistic, etc).

As I said before its due to different culture and historical tradition, the countries of the Crown of Aragon were really distinct from the Crown of Castile, although when the first was abolished with the 1705-1716 New Plants decrees there was a state-organised "Castilinization" of the annexed territories (although Castile also lost some institutions during that period).

About what the bull is the symbol of the extreme right in Spain, in Spain the far right has no representation, no influence no anything, and hardly anyone sees it as a symbol of extreme right. The bull is a tourist symbol since late 20th century, there is no getting around it: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neofascismo_en_España

I'm afraid that point is not debatable, I suggest you to watch some España 2000 or Democracia Nacional parades, or the Ultra-Sur hooligans.

BTW the fact that in Spain has no far right representation is a bit wrong. You just have to check who founded the ruling party (Partido Popular - Alianza Popular), one of the dictator's minister. Spain doesn't really need a far right party because many far right voters see the Partido Popular as the one that shares their extremist views.

You may say that is something of the past, but then nowadays you have acting ministers like Jorge Fernandez Díaz that goes to "inspire" himself in the Dictator's Tomb, El Valle de los Caídos (yeah the Spanish dictator has a huge monumental tomb maintained by the Spanish taxpayers). And the acting Spanish Gov party voted to keep funding the dictator's foundation.
http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/...r-ayuda-fundacion-francisco-franco_77864.html
http://www.elperiodico.com/es/notic...subvencion-fundacion-francisco-franco-4624649
http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Fernandez-Diaz-Valle-Caidos-meditar_0_263174624.html

The dictator's tomb:


- - -

In any case point being that IMHO the choice of the bull as symbol of the Spain Civ is a really poor one.
 
The Native American Spanish genocide is debatable. It would take a long post, as there's a strong debate in the Anthropology faculties, what is sure is that the Spanish colonisation provoked more than a million native deaths. Also sure is that Columbus himself wasn't a mass murderer, only a merely "gold-digger" explorer, as when he died he still thought that he had been in the Eastern Indias, not in America.

Not if in the end you will know more about Spain than a Spanish.

The most Native Americans were already killing each other before it reached Spain, and most of those who died after the arrival of the Spaniards was by epidemics of smallpox, measles, typhoid, influenza, .... to unless you're telling me that the Spanish conquistadores premeditated in their cruel minds a biological war uhhh :satan:. By this rule of three Genghis Khan is the devil for causing the Black Death in Europe and killed to a third of Europe's population.

That conquistadores were not saints, I have not denied it, but Spain was very concerned to protect to Native Americans from abuses, unlike other colonial powers, something not usually mentioned.

You say a million natives died by the Spaniards, do you know how many native Africans died in the Belgian Congo by the rubber industry? about ten million, not to mention those who were maimed by their Belgian masters as punishment for disobeying. But if you think in belgica do you think about genocide? certainly not, but in Spain yes? that is spanishphobia by the black legend. :(


Second subject, Franco's regime was the culprit of a mass killing state-organised campaign after the Spanish Civil War, the numbers are still not clear as archaeologist find new reminds every year, so far dozens of thousands. Unlike for instance the Republican gov, that although in its territories existed a lot of random murders, were not actually organised by the gov. I actually researched some of them.

I did not say that Francoism not kill people or if no ideological persecution, which of course there were them, I said that there is no clear and official opinion on whether or not it was genocide. and I've put a link blog that explains it, if you do not bother to read the links which I put, normal, then you come to this.


As I said before its due to different culture and historical tradition, the countries of the Crown of Aragon were really distinct from the Crown of Castile, although when the first was abolished with the 1705-1716 New Plants decrees there was a state-organised "Castilinization" of the annexed territories (although Castile also lost some institutions during that period).

The differences on common culture and history there between the territories that belonged to the Crown of Aragon are the same as between Ocitània, or burgundy or Britain and the rest of France.
The Spanish culture is the culture resulting from mixing the Iberian cultures, it is not the imposition of the culture of Castile to other territories. Or will you say that because Aragon not originally spoke Spanish, or Guyenne with the French or Naples with the Italian, are they not part of the Spanish, French or Italian culture respectively? :confused:

I'm afraid that point is not debatable, I suggest you to watch some España 2000 or Democracia Nacional parades, or the Ultra-Sur hooligans.

BTW the fact that in Spain has no far right representation is a bit wrong. You just have to check who founded the ruling party (Partido Popular - Alianza Popular), one of the dictator's minister. Spain doesn't really need a far right party because many far right voters see the Partido Popular as the one that shares their extremist views.

You may say that is something of the past, but then nowadays you have acting ministers like Jorge Fernandez Díaz that goes to "inspire" himself in the Dictator's Tomb, El Valle de los Caídos (yeah the Spanish dictator has a huge monumental tomb maintained by the Spanish taxpayers). And the acting Spanish Gov party voted to keep funding the dictator's foundation.

1 PP is a conservative party, which can be equated to any conservative party in Europe.

2 The far-right party in the Franco era was la falange, and continues to exist but neither god votes it.

3 You can not compare to PP with european far-right parties for example Marine Le Pen's party in France or Golden Dawn in Greece. :nono:

4 I do not know whether the far-right vote to PP or not, but certainly the ultra-right in Spain are a very small minority, and yet most people who vote to PP is moderate right.

5 There is a thing called Spanish transition in which the Spanish people decided to work together in democracy and abandon and overcome together the dictatorship, not if you've heard of it. What then parties do stupid things like threatening to third elections?, Spain is different. :crazyeye:

6 The majority of people in Spain does not relate the bull with the far right is what I said before. The people associate with the extreme right the swastika, Franco flag, the cart and oxen (although it is a symbol of the Catholic kings), but not with the bull. With the bull they relate bullfighting.

In any case point being that IMHO the choice of the bull as symbol of the Spain Civ is a really poor one.

I agree that the bull is not a good symbol for Spain in civ 6. :goodjob:
 
I'm afraid we are drifting to the off-topic area, so probably another forum may be better for the long term debate. But I'll answer swiftly, specially because I personally find the apologetic debate really boring.

Not if in the end you will know more about Spain than a Spanish.

Well, having in mind that the study of Spain has filled more than 20 years of my professional career, even lived in different Spanish cities and studied a good amount of anthropology subjects in a Spanish University, then I dare to say that some idea about the country I have, more than many natives, otherwise they wouldn't pay me for teaching them about their country. :crazyeye:

The most Native Americans were already killing each other before it reached Spain, and most of those who died after the arrival of the Spaniards was by epidemics of smallpox, measles, typhoid, influenza, ....

As I said the European colonisation is a debatable subject, there are many theories (it's almost one of the main trends in anthropology). The only thing that is clear and recognised widely, as I said before, is that the Spanish colonisation provoked more than a million deaths, feel free to read Bartolomé de las Casas, and others.


I did not say that Francoism not kill people or if no ideological persecution, which of course there were them, I said that there is no clear and official opinion on whether or not it was genocide.

I'll repeat that I have myself worked in that area, so I have a clear view about it. There's clear proof that the state organised a massive campaign of political murders, call it whatever allows you to sleep better at night.

The Spanish culture is the culture resulting from mixing the Iberian cultures, it is not the imposition of the culture of Castile to other territories.

Read again what I said before. Point simplified: The cultural differences between the different nations inside Spain is so obvious nowadays that even the Spanish Constitution (written partly by the Francoism regime remains) talks about it.

Heck just check a map of the last July Spanish congress elections or the different legislation between areas. Hint the civil legislation in the former countries of the Crown of Aragon is still nowadays based in the Roman Civil Law, unlike the Castilian one, a clear example is the marriage regime.

1 PP is a conservative party, which can be equated to any conservative party in Europe.

(Irony ON) Because any conservative party in Europe has been founded by a minister of a fascist dictatorship, funds a pro-fascist foundation and has an active minister that says that he inspires himself praying in a dictator's tomb. (Irony OFF)

6 The majority of people in Spain does not relate the bull with the far right is what I said before.

Ok, my neighbours, work-mates and friends in the cities and towns that I lived thought otherwise, maybe they were all brainwashed. Hint I lived in Madrid, Los Yebenes (Toledo), Cartagena, Torrelavega (Cantabria) and Barcelona.

You are also gonna tell me that the fact that those Spanish flags with the bull, that magically appeared in far right parties rallies, like España 2000 and Democracia Nacional, that I've seen with my own eyes were what, decoration?

I agree that the bull is not a good symbol for Spain in civ 6. :goodjob:

It's good that we can arrive to the same final conclusion tho. :lol::goodjob:

If you allow me a suggestion, stop reading the biased nowadays Spanish education books, and read directly the historical sources or accounts written in the same era (there's a good amount both by Spanish and foreigners).

NOTE: About the "Spanish transition in which the Spanish people decided to work together in democracy and abandon and overcome together the dictatorship," I won't even talk because I consider it such a big joke, that well, anyone that reads Spanish nowadays newspapers can see that the Transition was a huge failure, and an excuse to cover the crimes of the regime (and a way for the former King to keep his power, and please refrain from repeating the 23F mythology, white elephants, etc.).
 
It is clear that we will not agree, I have no intention to get to discuss about anthropology with you. The discussion about whether the bull should represent Spain in civ 6, which is the debate that interested to me is better discussing at the thread that I already linked before. I feel sorry for DJ_Tanner that the two have screwed up a little his thread, which is carefully worked very well indeed. I no longer posting more off topic.
 


I tried to find a hittite wheel that looks like that, but couldn't find one. Hittite wheels seems to have either four or six spokes.

It cannot be a wheel. It has to be a sun, and they just couldn't draw an accurate representation of it because the icon is too small.
Some sun disk did have central hub points :


I think the that civ artists may have tried to evocate the shape of a wheel with it, but it cannot be one, while it can be a simplified representation of a sun disk.
 
I hope this time Poland gets the white eagle or some kind of different symbol like hussars wings or something. The black eagle in Civ 5 was a F- disgrace. I bet it's going to be a lot of hate because of Jadwiga herself so there is no need for a total sheetstorm because Firaxis cannot spend 5 mins to make a proper icon ;) Also replacing Winged Hussars as UU is not an option.
 
I hope this time Poland gets the white eagle or some kind of different symbol like hussars wings or something. The black eagle in Civ 5 was a F- disgrace. I bet it's going to be a lot of hate because of Jadwiga herself so there is no need for a total sheetstorm because Firaxis cannot spend 5 mins to make a proper icon ;) Also replacing Winged Hussars as UU is not an option.

Hm? What's the issue? It was the Polish eagle in the last game. Is that not a proper icon?
 
Hm? What's the issue? It was the Polish eagle in the last game. Is that not a proper icon?

But it was black, and Polish Eagle is white (it happens sometimes: now spanish bulls are yellow :p). Back to Civ V and Poland. I think they should have switched colors with Austria. It was strange to have both them in game, Austria using a White Eagle, and Poland a Black one.

Just for fun

Spoiler :
Austria _______________________________________ Poland

_________________________
 
But it was black, and Polish Eagle is white (it happens sometimes: now spanish bulls are yellow :p). Back to Civ V and Poland. I think they should have switched colors with Austria. It was strange to have both them in game, Austria using a White Eagle, and Poland a Black one.

Just for fun

Spoiler :
Austria _______________________________________ Poland

_________________________
It wasn't only about the color. It was more about the fact it brings bad connotations / memories (partitions of Poland and Nazis). Imagine this: you are a Londoner and let's say you have a coat of arms with Spitfire over a blue sky yet in the Civilization you get Heinkel He 111 dropping bombs instead. It's something like that. I guess you wouldn't feel ok with it, right?
 
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