Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[Dale]

What are those reasons in the case of anti-tamper? Because as mentioned before, I don't see how anti-tamper could negatively affect things other than maybe the performance of the game itself.

Like @Shirotora Kenshin I have also explained my reasons in this very thread. Not everything is about suspected performance issues. There are many other reasons (most of which are in this thread).

Again, it's a bit pointless repeating myself, just to have people try to invalidate my opinion and ridicule them ..... again. So let's leave it at that, eh?

 

[Sherlock]

Denuvo is a PC gaming hill to die on.

 

[bladex1200]

What are those reasons in the case of anti-tamper? Because as mentioned before, I don't see how anti-tamper could negatively affect things other than maybe the performance of the game itself.

I'll hazard a guess it's opposition to DRM that has no direct consumer benefit on top of concerns or direct experience with degraded game performance.

 

[Leyrann]

I'll hazard a guess it's opposition to DRM that has no direct consumer benefit on top of concerns or direct experience with degraded game performance.

Maybe I'm being overly semantic here (although I'm not trying to be, this is just how I interpreted it), but that feels like a reason not to buy the game, as opposed to a reason not to want the game on your PC.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

Well, I don't want Denuvo on my system, so if the game has it, I won't buy it, as I don't want it on my PC. smiple.

Why I don't want it? Doesn't matter.

(us old farts can be stubborn, oh my yes, we can hold grudges!)

 

[Gorbles]

As the thread is still somewhat going, I felt it'd be appropriate to link this RPS piece here (published today):

Denuvo respond to their rep for tanking games - "I'm a gamer myself, and therefore I know what I'm talking about"

Denuvo Product Manager Andreas Ullmann speaks to RPS about public perception, misconception, and the recent Discord controversy.

www.rockpapershotgun.com

It'll be interesting to see if anything comes of it (r.e. the independent analysis mentioned). I'm not sure I want to lurk on another Discord server just to mute 99% of the channels on it, but I'm tempted.

 

[Dale]

As the thread is still somewhat going, I felt it'd be appropriate to link this RPS piece here (published today):

Denuvo respond to their rep for tanking games - "I'm a gamer myself, and therefore I know what I'm talking about"

Denuvo Product Manager Andreas Ullmann speaks to RPS about public perception, misconception, and the recent Discord controversy.

www.rockpapershotgun.com

It'll be interesting to see if anything comes of it (r.e. the independent analysis mentioned). I'm not sure I want to lurk on another Discord server just to mute 99% of the channels on it, but I'm tempted.

Interesting interview. I appreciate Denuvo being more transparent, but I really detest how they paint opposers of Denuvo as all pirates. That's really detestable behaviour. And we've seen them say it over and over, that the only negative stuff about Denuvo comes from pirates.

 

[Gorbles]

Interesting interview. I appreciate Denuvo being more transparent, but I really detest how they paint opposers of Denuvo as all pirates. That's really detestable behaviour. And we've seen them say it over and over, that the only negative stuff about Denuvo comes from pirates.

There was also a large emphasis on people who are simply misinformed. I doubt people who oppose it on other / personal grounds factor into their maths much. I have no way of knowing, but I suspect that stance is more of a rounding error.

The fact it's a PR piece is raised in the comments and it is valid (even though some are very uncharitable - I thought the questions were good!).

Honestly it comes down to them being able to demonstrate that Denuvo (when implemented properly) doesn't harm performance. Everything else is pretty interesting, but ultimately requires you to take them at their word.

 

[Dale]

There was also a large emphasis on people who are simply misinformed. I doubt people who oppose it on other / personal grounds factor into their maths much. I have no way of knowing, but I suspect that stance is more of a rounding error.

The fact it's a PR piece is raised in the comments and it is valid (even though some are very uncharitable - I thought the questions were good!).

Honestly it comes down to them being able to demonstrate that Denuvo (when implemented properly) doesn't harm performance. Everything else is pretty interesting, but ultimately requires you to take them at their word.

Possibly. It's just comments like this:

That's the thing that that's bothering me the most, to be honest, that people take this as proof of our solution causing performance issues. Because most of these comparisons are first of all, coming from some unknown YouTube channels, or from some sources that are more related to or have relations into the piracy scene - and are more news and influences in the piracy scene than in the normal gaming scene.

To try and push all negative reviews of Denuvo into the pirate-bin, is just detestable.

There is also other problems with Denuvo's message. Take this comment:

Because currently, there is only two ways to protect a game against piracy, right? Either you don't, or use our protection.

There are plenty of other anti-piracy measures a developer/publisher can use:
- The old spinning disks and manual lookups
- Steam/Epic/Publisher platforms are all forms of DRM
- Using superior features for legal copies, that illegal copies won't get access to (like patches, free game content, communities, MP, developer support, etc)
- Some games alter gameplay to make the game hard to play, two famous examples I can think of is Silent Service flipping the captains pants upwards over the periscope so you couldn't see enemy ships, and GTA4's disabling of car brakes
- And that's just a couple of ways I can think of this particular second.

So yes, I do appreciate Denuvo wanting to be more transparent, but their way of doing it is quite detestable IMO.

But whatever. Doesn't change my mind though. Civ7 is no-go.

 

[Riconatic]

- The old spinning disks and manual lookups
- Steam/Epic/Publisher platforms are all forms of DRM
- Using superior features for legal copies, that illegal copies won't get access to (like patches, free game content, communities, MP, developer support, etc)
- Some games alter gameplay to make the game hard to play, two famous examples I can think of is Silent Service flipping the captains pants upwards over the periscope so you couldn't see enemy ships, and GTA4's disabling of car brakes
- And that's just a couple of ways I can think of this particular second.

Computers have not had spinning disk drives for years and years. I haven’t had one since 2017. So not an option.

Epic and steam drm get cracked in ten seconds. Not an option today.

Cracked games get patches and free content too. Those are not an option.

Working ”hidden anti piracy-messures” require game code to stay intact and only denuvo can offer that today. Otherwise those measures get cracked away too. Same as previous point.

In my opinion you offered zero working alternatives.

Edition. I might have misunderstood. If spinning disc refered to physical items like manuals etc for protection, then those get cracked away unless they are well protected (only denuvo today). And the point stays that games are not physically delivered today.

 

[Patine]

Computers have not had spinning disk drives for years and years. I haven’t had one since 2017. So not an option.

Epic and steam drm get cracked in ten seconds. Not an option today.

Cracked games get patches and free content too. Those are not an option.

Working ”hidden anti piracy-messures” require game code to stay intact and only denuvo can offer that today. Otherwise those measures get cracked away too. Same as previous point.

In my opinion you offered zero working alternatives.

Computer game makers used to write off expected losses to piracy in their profit margins as a matter of course. Now they use it as an excuse to shove extra software that raises prices, affects performance, and MAY have intrusive features down our throats.

And, by the, I have a remote, plug-in spinning disk drive jacked into my computer, right now.

 

[Riconatic]

Computer game makers used to write off expected losses to piracy in their profit margins as a matter of course. Now they use it as an excuse to shove extra software that raises prices, affects performance, and MAY have intrusive features down our throats.

And, by the, I have a remote, plug-in spinning disk drive jacked into my computer, right now.

And like discussed in this thread. "Extra software" (which denuvo anti-tamper is not) is very ok if it harms me very little in measurabale ways.

 

[Patine]

And like discussed in this thread. "Extra software" (which denuvo anti-tamper is not) is very ok if it harms me very little in measurabale ways.

I do not share that tolerance for mandatory, superfluous software, and obviously neither do several others here.

 

[Gedemon]

Working ”hidden anti piracy-messures” require game code to stay intact and only denuvo can offer that today. Otherwise those measures get cracked away too. Same as previous point.

In my opinion you offered zero working alternatives.

Denuvo is not the only protection method with online check, it's just that usually it's associated with an account and reserved to mostly MP games (And Denuvo check is on install and then on drivers/config change). I think of Elite Dangerous as an example, which is also SP, but requires internet connection to play.

There was FADE/Degrade some time ago (ARMA III), not sure it's still used today

Honestly it comes down to them being able to demonstrate that Denuvo (when implemented properly) doesn't harm performance.

"implemented incorrectly" is one of my fear for Denuvo in civ7, but well see at release.

 

[Dale]

Computers have not had spinning disk drives for years and years. I haven’t had one since 2017. So not an option.

Epic and steam drm get cracked in ten seconds. Not an option today.

Cracked games get patches and free content too. Those are not an option.

Working ”hidden anti piracy-messures” require game code to stay intact and only denuvo can offer that today. Otherwise those measures get cracked away too. Same as previous point.

In my opinion you offered zero working alternatives.

Edition. I might have misunderstood. If spinning disc refered to physical items like manuals etc for protection, then those get cracked away unless they are well protected (only denuvo today). And the point stays that games are not physically delivered today.

Just ask yourself, if none of those measures "works" (your opinion), then why do publishers still use those alternative measures that I suggested?

And by your measure, Denuvo doesn't work either, since Denuvo games still get pirated.

Note: I said anti-PIRACY not anti-CRACKED. Currently Denuvo is the only method that is not getting CRACKED, but Denuvo games still get pirated. (Out of curiosity, I checked on sites un-mentioned, and there's quite a few 2024 Denuvo games available for pirating).

 

[Gorbles]

Just ask yourself, if none of those measures "works" (your opinion), then why do publishers still use those alternative measures that I suggested?

I'm not sure which alternative measures you're talking about, but in you're talking about Steam or Epic, it's because they're also digital distribution platforms.

In the case of cool developer functions that punish cracking,

a) they take up developer effort, and
b) they work less and less as time goes on. I'm not aware of many modern titles, if any, that do something like this. The last big one I remember was Serious Sam 3?

Note: I said anti-PIRACY not anti-CRACKED. Currently Denuvo is the only method that is not getting CRACKED, but Denuvo games still get pirated. (Out of curiosity, I checked on sites un-mentioned, and there's quite a few 2024 Denuvo games available for pirating).

From everything I can find, something needs to be cracked to be made available. I would be very skeptical of pirated games (or software generally) "available", as malware is very, very common.

 

[Dale]

I'm not sure which alternative measures you're talking about, but in you're talking about Steam or Epic, it's because they're also digital distribution platforms.

In the case of cool developer functions that punish cracking,

a) they take up developer effort, and
b) they work less and less as time goes on. I'm not aware of many modern titles, if any, that do something like this. The last big one I remember was Serious Sam 3?

From everything I can find, something needs to be cracked to be made available. I would be very skeptical of pirated games (or software generally) "available", as malware is very, very common.

I was countering their claim that "there's two ways to protect a game against piracy, you don't or you use Denuvo". Their claim is just not factual.

Nor is their repeated implying that anyone saying negative things about Denuvo is from the pirating community.

It's just marketing spin, with no facts thrown in to support them, other than "trust me, bro".

 

[Gorbles]

I was countering their claim that "there's two ways to protect a game against piracy, you don't or you use Denuvo". Their claim is just not factual.

If the measures don't work, or aren't economically-viable (r.e. developer effort), then it is a factual claim nowadays.

That said, I completely agree that they're marketing their product through this. Or trying to anyhow.

 

[Riconatic]

Just ask yourself, if none of those measures "works" (your opinion), then why do publishers still use those alternative measures that I suggested?

And by your measure, Denuvo doesn't work either, since Denuvo games still get pirated.

Note: I said anti-PIRACY not anti-CRACKED. Currently Denuvo is the only method that is not getting CRACKED, but Denuvo games still get pirated. (Out of curiosity, I checked on sites un-mentioned, and there's quite a few 2024 Denuvo games available for pirating).

About none of those methods you said are used for anti-piracy or hardly at all. Others exits for other reasons and pirates benefit from almost all them (maybe not support etc). So there is nothing I need to ask for myself.

According to the recent study Denuvo increases profits. So it is totally irrelevant if there is still ways left to pirate.

"implemented incorrectly" is one of my fear for Denuvo in civ7, but well see at release.

I guess this was addressed by irdeto somewhat same way in RPS interview as earlier in this thread.
What is ration of failed implementations vs working implementations? Irdeto themselves also referenced to experience of implementer and Firaxis and 2K have experience.

In my categorisation "fear" would too strong. I think I would categorize it as footnote.

 

[UWHabs]

About none of those methods you said are used for anti-piracy or hardly at all. Others exits for other reasons and pirates benefit from almost all them (maybe not support etc). So there is nothing I need to ask for myself.

According to the recent study Denuvo increases profits. So it is totally irrelevant if there is still ways left to pirate.


I guess this was addressed by irdeto somewhat same way in RPS interview as earlier in this thread.
What is ration of failed implementations vs working implementations? Irdeto themselves also referenced to experience of implementer and Firaxis and 2K have experience.

In my categorisation "fear" would too strong. I think I would categorize it as footnote.

Every developer needs to make the decision - does the time, effort, and cost to implement a solution like Denuvo seem likely to pay off in the end. If Firaxis didn't think it was going to be better for them long-term, and that they were better to run those other methods, they would do that. Simple as that. Adding DRM like Denuvo I can 100% guarantee is coming from a business directive at the top, and not from the devs at the bottom.

Some companies probably bake in a level of losses by not implementing extra DRM. How much that is depends a lot on how popular a game, how much risk tolerance the business unit has, etc... I don't know, that's not my job. And it's highly possible that the Denuvo Marketing Team is running circles around Firaxis and other companies. It wouldn't be the first company out there who does a way better job at marketing their product to the people who matter (business teams), and that's why they stay in business. Obviously they've done enough work to convince 2K that the sales they lose from people who don't like it, plus the money they pay for the license, will make up for a potential loss otherwise.

It's up to everyone to decide why to buy or not buy a game. If someone says they don't want to buy a game because they don't like the color scheme, I might not understand it because it's not a reason I'd avoid a game, but that's their call.

Personally, I see this whole thing as a business decision by Firaxis. The aggressive version with kernel code, okay, would be hesitant. But I don't see this version of Denuvo as any different than them using whatever random library in their code for some reason. So it doesn't impact me at all, for all intents and purposes. Sure, the devs might mess up and impact performance, but I haven't seen the game without it, and I bet there's a million other places they could mess up to impact performance anyways, so I'll never know anyways. And if it screws a few pirates, all the better.