ombak
Prince
This thread has some real hidden potential... potential to be an all-timer internet meme, like the bodybuilder who didn't understand how working out every other day works in a seven day week...
Civ7 now includes Denuvo
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To add what I know to this discussion:
Prior to today, I had zero knowledge on what Denuvo is. Predictably, I found a lot of misinformation trying to look into it, but after some discussion with p0k and some of my own research I've now formed my own somewhat informed understanding of the matter.
To preface this, I'm one out of the two people who (outside of the piracy community) has substantial experience in reverse engineering Civ VI (I made Community Extension). I'm no cryptography expert but I'm doing my best to learn.
Denuvo Anti-Tamper (NOT Anti-Cheat) is software that does the following to a game executable:
So what does all of this accomplish?
Denuvo's anti-tamper solution makes it incredibly difficult and time consuming for reverse engineers to modify or in any way "crack" the game's native binaries (.exe and unmanaged .dll files). Though, no solution is truly perfect. Denuvo's anti-tamper software has been circumvented many times before and will most likely continue to be in the future, but the amount of time that it takes for games that implement Denuvo to be cracked is significantly high, and is often enough time and hassle to convince pirates it's not worth the effort or the wait to play the game for free, increasing sales.
What does this mean for me, the end user?
If done right by Firaxis, the inclusion of Denuvo should have no noticeable impact on the game's performance.
Modding, however, is most certainly going to be negatively affected. Understanding how the whole environment works is going to be more difficult when it's obsfucated, as well as creating new DLL mods. This doesn't detract in any way from what will ultimately be possible with what the developers at Firaxis directly provide us in their modding environment, we should just hope they do a good job documenting it.
Denuvo does not compromise your computer's security or overall performance, and it will not require you to be constantly online. Denuvo Anti-Tamper is not root-level!
Prior to today, I had zero knowledge on what Denuvo is. Predictably, I found a lot of misinformation trying to look into it, but after some discussion with p0k and some of my own research I've now formed my own somewhat informed understanding of the matter.
To preface this, I'm one out of the two people who (outside of the piracy community) has substantial experience in reverse engineering Civ VI (I made Community Extension). I'm no cryptography expert but I'm doing my best to learn.
Denuvo Anti-Tamper (NOT Anti-Cheat) is software that does the following to a game executable:
- Implementation of a highly obsfucated VM (Virtual Machine).
For those unfamiliar with what a VM is, it's essentially the specification for a (usually purely theoretical) CPU (computer) implemented in software (hence the name "Virtual Machine"). VMs are used by interpreted programming languages, and by software designed to emulate different computer architectures (like VirtualBox). This implicates processing overhead, because while the VM itself will run directly on the CPU, the code that it executes isn't (obviously). Whether this processing overhead is noticeable, or tangible, or in any way relevant is not something that we necessarily have the answer to, but the concerns for performance I've noted in this thread are most likely overblown. Where exactly the VM is implemented is not public information. Irdeto claims that their anti-tamper is only used in non-critical functions, but it appears (based on interviews with Humankind and some other games that implement versions of Denuvo anti-tamper) that the responsibility of upholding this claim is actually in the game-developer's hands as they choose what they deem as "performance-critical". Obviously people get **** wrong all the time, and it appears this is what happened with Humankind, as their implementation severely impacted performance and was cut from the game.
- Hardware specific encryption
When the game that uses Denuvo anti-tamper is first installed on the user's computer, it performs a check to determine the unique hardware and operating system configuration of their system. This unique key is used to encrypt parts of the game's code. Whenever the user launches the game, Denuvo will perform that check again, generating a new key to decrypt your installation of the game. If the key does not match the one that was generated when you installed the game, or if the encrypted code itself was changed since installation, the code that gets created by the decryption process will be unusable, causing the user to CTD (crash to desktop). This implicates increased startup times as the game will need to decrypt and generate parts of its own code each time it's opened. Also, this could mean that upgrading your computer's hardware may require you to reinstall the game or contact their support. Once again, the effect this has on performance is probably overblown, but without a direct comparison between the game with Denuvo and without, it's impossible to say just how relevant it is.
- Code obfuscation
Outside of the VM, Denuvo will also obfuscate its own code and much of the game's remaining machine code to make it harder for hackers to follow program logic and control flow.
- NO root-level access is granted to Denuvo. It is entirely application-level.
So what does all of this accomplish?
Denuvo's anti-tamper solution makes it incredibly difficult and time consuming for reverse engineers to modify or in any way "crack" the game's native binaries (.exe and unmanaged .dll files). Though, no solution is truly perfect. Denuvo's anti-tamper software has been circumvented many times before and will most likely continue to be in the future, but the amount of time that it takes for games that implement Denuvo to be cracked is significantly high, and is often enough time and hassle to convince pirates it's not worth the effort or the wait to play the game for free, increasing sales.
What does this mean for me, the end user?
- Less pirates means more revenue for Firaxis, which may result in an increased investment in the game, benefiting all players.
- Poor implementation by Firaxis can have serious performance implications, hurting all players.
- Reverse engineering the game for modding purposes becomes significantly harder. Without proper documentation from the developers, extracting data from the game binaries was necessary to know the entire environment in Civ VI. Mods that modify the game's binary code are also entirely unrealistic (Vox Populi + other custom GameCore mods from V and Community Extension + Workable 4th tile from VI). This will hurt the entire modding community. (Though to be entirely clear, it absolutely will NOT cripple it)
If done right by Firaxis, the inclusion of Denuvo should have no noticeable impact on the game's performance.
Modding, however, is most certainly going to be negatively affected. Understanding how the whole environment works is going to be more difficult when it's obsfucated, as well as creating new DLL mods. This doesn't detract in any way from what will ultimately be possible with what the developers at Firaxis directly provide us in their modding environment, we should just hope they do a good job documenting it.
Denuvo does not compromise your computer's security or overall performance, and it will not require you to be constantly online. Denuvo Anti-Tamper is not root-level!
Modding, however, is most certainly going to be negatively affected, which was also stated by a prominent youtuber thou not in terms of Denuvo, but the cash grab at the start by 2K and the simple fact Modding has had zero mention in any offical source - Zero
Sigh Im defo going give this a big swerve until year(s) have passed GG
Sigh Im defo going give this a big swerve until year(s) have passed GG
I've seen that "prominent youtuber" video, and I don't share his pessimism.
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Word
WildW brings up a valid point about investigative tinkering to learn more about the modding environment beyond what is documented and dll mods with regards to Denuvo.
However, I think it’s worth emphasizing that Denuvo has zero implications on general modding.
Civ 7 will have modding. They’ve already talked about it and there are rumors that the database framework will be similar to that of Civ 6, meaning very accessible.
Denuvo won’t stop you from making a new civ or adding new buildings or rebalancing the game.
Not true. Ed Beach mentioned civ modding in an interview.
WildW brings up a valid point about investigative tinkering to learn more about the modding environment beyond what is documented and dll mods with regards to Denuvo.
However, I think it’s worth emphasizing that Denuvo has zero implications on general modding.
Civ 7 will have modding. They’ve already talked about it and there are rumors that the database framework will be similar to that of Civ 6, meaning very accessible.
Denuvo won’t stop you from making a new civ or adding new buildings or rebalancing the game.
AntSou
Deity
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Thank you for reminding me of that masterpiece. I haven't read it in a few years.
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I genuinely believe this to be false. I’ve done a ton of searching and all I can find is random conjecture from Reddit or Steam forum posts.
There are a lot of random people claiming devs can “set it to verify as often as they wish.” The fact is this is hearsay. Denuvo has never said anything about it, and I can’t find a single professional article about a videogame mentioning that.
If you found better evidence than a forum or Reddit post, I’m happy to reassess. But I think this is just another feather in the huge pile of murky facts and misinformation about Denuvo.
Fair enough you a link to Ed ?
also per above post
If done right by Firaxis, the inclusion of Denuvo should have no noticeable impact on the game's performance.
Modding, however, is most certainly going to be negatively affected. Understanding how the whole environment works is going to be more difficult when it's obsfucated, as well as creating new DLL mods. This doesn't detract in any way from what will ultimately be possible with what the developers at Firaxis directly provide us in their modding environment, we should just hope they do a good job documenting it.
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Interview – Ed Beach on Civilization VII Ages, diplomacy & security blankets | TheSixthAxis
Civilization VII is coming at a really interesting time for the historical 4X genre, with a bunch of rivals having sprung up in the last few years, and
www.thesixthaxis.com
I’m not sure you understood my post or what WildW meant.
I summarized what WildW said and added additional context, which he himself apparently agreed with because he liked my post.
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Professor Phobo
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Really ambitious total conversion mods will have an issue, if my understanding is correct, but if you're just modifying existing game rules, it won't be a problem.
This is true, I read the interview too.
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And Ed Beach just mentioned modding in the same context, live at their PAX panel.
brick623
Chieftain
Sadly this controversy has put me off a pre-order. I had considered it, but I am going to wait this one out. I would love to play the game but I am not desperate to play Civ VII and can wait a few weeks to see what others say about it. It's also expensive in Europe at €69.99, though I do acknowledge inflation, exchange to USD, overhaeds, etc.
JNR13
Prince
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And it's worth noting that the current possibilities for ambitious total conversions without DLL access weren't really pushed to their limits yet anyway, other than maybe Gedemon's attempted overhaul, because of the immense amount of work required for it. Maybe VII's streamlining will actually make total conversion mods easier again because there might be fewer moving pieces to account for.
Also, we have a bit of hope left that Denuvo will be removed a while after release to save on fees, and DLL reverse engineering and such is more of a long-term modding thing anyway. The first year we'll be busy figuring out the official tools, documenting our experiences, and establishing our workflows and such.
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Right. To analogize it to Civ 6, we’ll first need the Steam workshop situation to evolve into a critical mass of anime civ mods that are absurdly overpowered but uniquely coded.
About the time that happens is when folks will start trying to take modding to the next level with more ambitious overhauls
Zoeff
Chieftain
I'm not sure I understand the exact difference between Civ 6 without Denuvo and Civ 7 with. Nor had I realized that Civ 6 modders gained the ability to modify Civ 6's binary code like that. Gives me hope for a lekmod kind of deal for Civ 6 one day.
From what I can tell this means that mods that go beyond the scope of the modding tools provided by Firaxis are difficult even without Denuvo but with Denuvo it's even more difficult? Is that correct?
Hammurabi II
Warlord
Wow. This is a hard no from me and I've played every PC based Civ game for 20 some years.
Denuvo does not prevent standard mods, but any Mod that touches the EXE file with Denuvo is impossible. I don't know if it would be possible with DLL files, but Firaxis didn't even release them for CIV 6. Another thing is that Denuvo need to authenticate every X days (depends on the publisher) the game must connect to the server to get one back, so playing offline is possible if you have the active ticket if not you have to go online and at least for me this gave me some problems (especially with fm 2023 because the server had problems and I've been avoiding every Denuvo game since then). for further information on this I put this link where they talk about it
Denuvo doesn't let me play a game offline? :: Help and Tips
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I don’t believe any of this to be true.Another thing is that Denuvo need to authenticate every X days (depends on the publisher) the game must connect to the server to get one back, so playing offline is possible if you have the active ticket if not you have to go online and at least for me this gave me some problems (especially with fm 2023 because the server had problems and I've been avoiding every Denuvo game since then). for further information on this I put this link where they talk about it
Denuvo doesn't let me play a game offline? :: Help and Tips
steamcommunity.com
There’s no proof this has ever been the case for Denuvo Anti-Tamper. The “source” for that is other forum posts citing each other in a weird cycle.
A 7-year old Steam thread doesn’t prove anything, I think. Half the posts were people arguing about it. Denuvo Anti-Tamper and Anti-Cheat weren’t even separate products until years later.
So you do one thing, do some research regardless of what I tell you and check if what I told you is true or false and then let me know
PS:I thought you knew what Denuvo did, but I see you know nothing
Moderator Action: Please stop trolling other forum members. leif
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