Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[pokiehl]

Lots of misinformation is resurfacing that has already been cleared up in previous pages. That’s what makes discussing this topic so challenging.

That would be my hope. I recall hearing that this type of DRM in the best case may delay cracking for about a month, but that this can have a positive impact on initial sales. If that is the case, then it makes sense to me to remove the DRM for paying customers at some point after release.

This is very old “conventional wisdom”, like going back years.

It’s outdated info now. No game with Denuvo has been cracked for almost 2 years now. Pirates have been complaining nonstop about Denuvo for quite a while. Knowing that this means they can’t steal the game, I’m sure that a large portion of the uproar against Denuvo is from pirates as well.

 

[KayAU]

This is very old “conventional wisdom”, like going back years.

It’s outdated info now. No game with Denuvo has been cracked for almost 2 years now. Pirates have been complaining nonstop about Denuvo for quite a while. Knowing that this means they can’t steal the game, I’m sure that a large portion of the uproar against Denuvo is from pirates as well.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. That does of course make it a lot easier to justify the DRM.

It doesn't necessarily mean I will accept it myself of course.

 

[Riconatic]

It doesn't necessarily mean I will accept it myself of course.

Might I ask why?

 

[GIO888]

Re "confusing" Denuvo anti-tamper with Denuvo anti-cheat.

Two sides of the same coin. You can't "mix up" Data Mining operating system piggy-backers. or are they not?

And whereas pirates will get around anything they really want to, us Joe Smokes just want to play a game without software dragging performance down, burning through our SSD's

and collecting data from places they should have no permission to be.

 

[pokiehl]

Re "confusing" Denuvo anti-tamper with Denuvo anti-cheat.

Two sides of the same coin. You can't "mix up" Data Mining operating system piggy-backers. or are they not?

Nope, totally different. Denuvo Anti-Tamper is not an installed program.

And whereas pirates will get around anything they really want to, us Joe Smokes just want to play a game without software dragging performance down, burning through our SSD's

Pirates haven't gotten around Denuvo Anti-Tamper in nearly two years. Publishers use it because it works.

Denuvo Anti-Tamper does not impact performance and the "burning through SSDs" thing is a myth from years ago. There are no background processes with Denuvo Anti-Tamper.

and collecting data from places they should have no permission to be.

Denuvo Anti-Tamper does not collect data from anywhere, and is not installed on your computer as said above.

 

[Riconatic]

Re "confusing" Denuvo anti-tamper with Denuvo anti-cheat.

Two sides of the same coin. You can't "mix up" Data Mining operating system piggy-backers. or are they not?

And whereas pirates will get around anything they really want to, us Joe Smokes just want to play a game without software dragging performance down, burning through our SSD's

and collecting data from places they should have no permission to be.

As you were already explained. No they are not two sides of same coin.

They have totally different purpose:
Other scans your computer/data, other protects (encrypts) the game code.

For them to achieve their intended purpose they operate totally different way.

In conclusion everything you thought it does is wrong.

 

[Kwami]

Denuvo Anti-Tamper does not impact performance

Yes, it does. That's why Amplitude removed it from Humankind before launch.

 

[KayAU]

Might I ask why?

I would have to research the specific DRM first before giving an answer, and the decision would then be based on how worried I were about it, how restrictive I found any activation limits or online requirements or such, as opposed to how badly I wanted the game. But just having to do that is a point against the game for me.

Note that I'm not saying that I wouldn't accept it, just that I wouldn't necessarily do it, even if I understood the decision to include the DRM from a business standpoint. With regards to that, since I haven't been paying attention in recent years, do you know if there is any good evidence suggesting that DRM improves sales now?

 

[Kwami]

Other scans your computer/data, other protects (encrypts) the game code.

They both scan your computer. The authentication token that's generated by Denuvo anti-tamper is generated using some unspecified combination of hardware and software information. We don't know exactly what information it collects.

 

[Riconatic]

Yes, it does. That's why Amplitude removed it from Humankind before launch.

It can, as any code, done wrong. There are infamous examples where denuvo was added to code like ”really wrong” as part of critical code paths. And it really slows down then.

2K has experience using denuvo correctly also, so it would not be prudent to expect firaxis to implement it really wrong.

 

[Riconatic]

They both scan your computer. The authentication token that's generated by Denuvo anti-tamper is generated using some unspecified combination of hardware and software information. We don't know exactly what information it collects.

With userspace access rights it has no access to anything really special. But yes. It generates key speciffic to your setup.

 

[Riconatic]

With regards to that, since I haven't been paying attention in recent years, do you know if there is any good evidence suggesting that DRM improves sales now?

No, not really. Question like that is quite irrelevant to me. Only 2K/firaxis need to worry about that.

What I need to worry
Does it have effect in my use cases. Unlikely. Only case would be very bad implementation. But 2K has experience.

If effects on me does it work for the purpose it claims to do.Yes, it has been very hard to crack recent years.
This is the level how far I estimate the usefulness of DRM code. I do not need sales figures. It is enough that they believe so.

 

[pokiehl]

do you know if there is any good evidence suggesting that DRM improves sales now?

Intuitively this is the case. Denuvo costs a lot of money to implement. Publishers want to make money. They wouldn’t do it unless they had the data and confidence that it generates revenue.

 

[KayAU]

No, not really. Question like that is quite irrelevant to me. Only 2K/firaxis need to worry about that.

What I need to worry
Does it have effect in my use cases. Unlikely. Only case would be very bad implementation. But 2K has experience.

If effects on me does it work for the purpose it claims to do.Yes, it has been very hard to crack recent years.
This is the level how far I estimate the usefulness of DRM code. I do not need sales figures.

Yeah, fair enough, I'm just curious. The situation some years ago was that DRM was a major inconvenience which appeared to accomplish very little. I am wondering if the situation has changed.

While it isn't much of a concern to me in either case, I am more interested in whether it has a positive impact on sales than whether it prevents cracking.

 

[KayAU]

Intuitively this is the case. Denuvo costs a lot of money to implement. Publishers want to make money. They wouldn’t do it unless they had the data and confidence that it generates revenue.

That makes logical sense, but I am also open to the possibility that they could be wrong. Companies don't always make rational decisions. My impression of the state of DRM a decade or two ago (man I'm getting old), was that the cracked version was released more or less at the same time as the game, and some publishers were still extremely eager to push it.

 

[Dale]

Knowing that this means they can’t steal the game, I’m sure that a large portion of the uproar against Denuvo is from pirates as well.

This is an absolutely disgusting assumption, and you should stop pushing it immediately. How dare you say that a large portion of the people in this thread saying the inclusion of Denuvo means they're out, are pirates! Absolutely disgusting assumption.

 

[pokiehl]

This is an absolutely disgusting assumption, and you should stop pushing it immediately. How dare you say that a large portion of the people in this thread saying the inclusion of Denuvo means they're out, are pirates! Absolutely disgusting assumption.

Calm down. That isn’t what I said.

I was referring to Denuvo uproar in general. Go look at Denuvo threads on Reddit and you’ll see a lot of complaints about it from people admitting they just want to pirate games. This sentiment has ticked up quite a bit as Denuvo Anti-Tamper gets perceived more and more as “uncrackable.”

There are plenty of bad actors who just want free games chiming into the crowd. There was even a post in this very thread by someone admitting that…

 

[Dale]

Calm down. That isn’t what I said.

I was referring to Denuvo uproar in general. Go look at Denuvo threads on Reddit and you’ll see a lot of complaints about it from people admitting they just want to pirate games. This sentiment has ticked up quite a bit as Denuvo Anti-Tamper gets perceived more and more as “uncrackable.”

There are plenty of bad actors who just want free games chiming into the crowd. There was even a post in this very thread by someone admitting that…

Well you should be a lot clearer about what you are saying. And I'm not going to read reddit, it's arguably a worse place to read threads than steam forums are. And one person in this thread is NOT "a large portion of the uproar against Denuvo". Which is literally what you said.

 

[Kwami]

That makes logical sense, but I am also open to the possibility that they could be wrong. Companies don't always make rational decisions. My impression of the state of DRM a decade or two ago (man I'm getting old), was that the cracked version was released more or less at the same time as the game, and some publishers were still extremely eager to push it.

That's right. Companies fell for the marketing and implemented useless DRM. We can't know if Denuvo is a net gain for the publisher because we don't have access to their data, but I'd be surprised if it actually is. Most people who pirate games wouldn't have bought the game, anyway. Some players won't buy games that use Denuvo. And 2K probably paid quite a bit for that licensing fee.

 

[Atlas627]

A DRM which reduces the number of installs of Civ7 is unlikely to increase sales of Civ7. What it does do is increase sales of Civ8 and on, because you can't keep playing Civ7 forever.

Now, how many sales does it increase by? Probably negligible. The problem is, this is exactly the type of thing that is difficult to collect data on. What are you going to do, have a survey that asks "hey, did you only buy this new game because the old one stopped working"?

Profitable companies are more likely to have good data than unprofitable companies, but I think most companies are still operating on hunches. I don't think it is a good assumption to say 2k would only choose X because it makes them money. However, they are a huge company and beholden to stockholders, so I do assume someone is trying to hold their feet to the fire re: profit, so I think it is a fair assumption that DRM is not obviously unprofitable, or they would've removed it.