Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[Gedemon]

The statement is totally unsourced though. Ultimately with regards to Denuvo there is simply far too much speculation being portrayed as fact.

Funny thing, I wanted to test, looked at the list of game using it, only found one I have (SW Squadron, got it free with Epic)

Unplug my ethernet cable to go offline, tried to launch, stopped by the EA launcher failing to connect, well of course...

Plug back the cable, tried to launch again, EA ask me for my mail/pass, ok, I haven't used it in ages, but the launcher could at least remember the mail I used to log in ?

Take some tries to find the good mail to reset the password that was of course forgotten, and able to log in.

then bam, Epic launcher now, that I also haven't used in ages (remembered the mail I used, good for you Epic, you're 1 point closer to being positive than EA !), ask me to solve not one but 2 captcha after login, ask me again 2 captcha as my first attempt at password was not correct, and finally logged in...

then the game itself is now asking me to activate on my PC, for that I need to give it my login/pass from EA. What ? again, just done that... and I played that game a few times at the time, I remember that.

so ok, I give up, Denuvo's a lesser evil if it sends all those damned multiple launchers in oblivion

But that last login check, was it Denuvo ?

So, now, I wonder if Civ7 will use Steam/Epic as a secondary (and useless) DRM, would be nice to double-click on the icon to launch it directly, without any other layer of software in the background.

Ok, tomorrow I'll buy a game on GOG to punish the others

 

[leif erikson]

This is a blog post concerning Denuvo performance, how it works and how it affects the system to the extent this person could figure it out. I learned from it, maybe you can too?

 

[Dale]

Last thing I'll say about Denuvo, and really why I believe the risk is too great to have it:

This is the same people who brought you SecureROM.

 

[Leyrann]

The Acer article was written by someone who is 8 years in tech journalism.

People with decades of experience in journalism regularly write down the most ridiculous nonsense, just look at [insert politically contentious topic here]. Journalism experience is such a terrible metric for reliability that it's nearly a negative.

 

[BK_PEARL]

I already removed the game from my Steam Wishlist. Hopefully if they see a sudden drop in Wish-listing of the game after this announcement, perhaps it will force a change. To be fair to Firaxis, I feel certain this move is coming from 2K....one of the crappier publishers currently out there (barely beaten out by EA or Ubisoft).


I know you're probably being sarcastic but.....are you new here?


Hey Dale. Can I just say......I LOVE Old World.


Sorry, what's this about "microtransactions including the fog of war tiles"?!?!

Civ 6 has the statup question every time, if i can remember right its accept ALL cookies or none question, that tells you a lot. its not specific and doesn't tell you what all is ?

 

[BK_PEARL]

That part needs clarification I think

Denuvo - PCGamingWiki PCGW - bugs, fixes, crashes, mods, guides and improvements for every PC game

www.pcgamingwiki.com

A consequence of its use of unique hardware-based code paths, Denuvo Anti-Tamper requires an online connection periodically as the system environment of the operating system changes with new hardware and/or Windows updates. While everything that might invalidate the token stored on the storage drive is not fully known, this happens frequently enough for the anti-tamper protection to be described as requiring a periodic online connection every fortnight or so. This is generally not an issue or hindrance for those with an always present online connection, but can be an annoyance for people primarily using roaming data. Players gaming offline for a long period of time can also suffer if proper preparations are not made in advance to ensure the validity of the offline token. The lack of transparency on storefronts regarding this process from Denuvo Anti-Tamper is a hindrance for potential purchasers, as it means people might not be aware of its presence and periodic online requirement before purchasing a game that, after purchase, the purchaser may find unplayable when an online connection is unavailable.

that may count me out, half of my civ playing is offline. edit, probably, realistically it won't.

 

[Riconatic]

3. They both refer to the notion that games with Denuvo routinely get cracked, which actually hasn't been the case for nearly 2 years now.

And so on

These "articles" just restate all the general claims about Denuvo that are found on forums. There's no real research or sources, and there are numerous inaccuracies.

The point 3 was also presented same way in the polycast episode which handled denuvo.

I feel that denuvo part was unprofessional and was very hard to listen for me.

 

[GIO888]

After reading the articles Dale linked to, (Thank You Dale!)

My worst suspicions about Denuvo have been at the very LEAST echoed, and I'm also slightly chagrined now by the pompous condescension I've had
raising concerns about it.......

 

[pokiehl]

This is a blog post concerning Denuvo performance, how it works and how it affects the system to the extent this person could figure it out. I learned from it, maybe you can too?

I got a chance to read this in full today; what a good find this is.

As Irdeto doesn't release much info about the product themselves, I think this write-up has to be one of the most informative to date about Denuvo as it is based on the author's first-hand experience and technical expertise. Thanks for sharing. (A lot of the more technical stuff went over my head, but still informative!)

 

[Dale]

This is a blog post concerning Denuvo performance, how it works and how it affects the system to the extent this person could figure it out. I learned from it, maybe you can too?

That article doesn't really confirm anything if you actually read it. The writer does seem to be able to perform some tests, but by their own admission they know they haven't patched ALL spots that Denuvo interrupts.

"For a real crack, it is obviously needed to patch all of the runtime checks. Finding all of them is still an extremely time consuming task, so everyone who has achieved that deserves my utmost respect.

However, I do believe that once I have patched some/most of the runtime checks and discovered all hardware features, I would be capable to patch all of them with enough time and motivation."

The question of performance isn't even addressed properly. By their own admission they said they can't assess performance impact, just look at how many times their hooks detect Denuvo, which as above is only "some" of the spots.

Precisely measuring the performance impact Denuvo causes is extremely difficult. It requires knowing all the exact pieces of code Denuvo executes. Identifying these is an insanely huge amount of work.

The writer also admits there is probably other spots Denuvo interrupts that they just didn't have to patch to get the game running to the point they could do this little analysis.

What I also don’t know is if there are other pieces of code Denuvo executes at that time, that I just didn’t need to hook.

The writer's conclusion just doesn't seem to be valid, since by their own admission they didn't patch all of Denuvo's interrupts, couldn't assess performance impact, and admits a true measurement is more time consuming and they didn't want to do it.

To me personally, it tells that Denuvo executes checks so infrequently, that the likelyhood of it causing major performance issues seems rather low. In terms of the analogy, it might more be in the range of one meeting per year.
I don’t know whether this is actually the case or not. This requires a different, more time consuming measurement, which to me doesn’t seem worth setting up.

What would be much better is the reputed Denuvo independent testing that was promised in July last year. As I said earlier, if it's truly independent, and truly shows that Denuvo doesn't have any negative impacts, then they would have sung that from the highest points and put it all over the internet. But, in it's complete absence, you do have to question. Specially with the mounting "speculative" evidence from gamers themselves.

 

[Siptah]

I‘m not sure if these independent tests ever happened. They were announced in summer 2023 with a loose schedule of „in some months“ and that game magazines/websites would be able to perform them. I haven‘t read any indication that this already took place, it‘s just a loose announcement so far. Clearing up the situation would be beneficial for all sides. For Denuvo, but also for the magazines/websites that announced that they will get the respective game versions for testing.

 

[bladex1200]

I‘m not sure if these independent tests ever happened. They were announced in summer 2023 with a loose schedule of „in some months“ and that game magazines/websites would be able to perform them. I haven‘t read any indication that this already took place, it‘s just a loose announcement so far. Clearing up the situation would be beneficial for all sides. For Denuvo, but also for the magazines/websites that announced that they will get the respective game versions for testing.

I mean it seems to me that with the kind of stuff most gamers will accept, independent testing is not necessary from their POV and likely would only hurt Denuvo, which is why it hasn't been done despite being announced (TBH if I worked there I would propose firing whomever in marketing proposed such testing; never propose a test you don't already internally know the outcome of).

Like, I oppose Denuvo on the principle of opposing DRM, but one must hand it to them that Denuvo DRM at least for most players is far less intrusive than many of the crappy storefronts or other available DRMs as mentioned in Maurice's blogpost or when Gedemon did his amusing test. If your issue is with potential impact, it seems Denuvo's potential impact for most players will indeed be limited. The limited number of players who will have negative impact seems to me to be in a tiny minority compared to most given that the most recent DRM releases haven't had major performance complaints across all gamers and have sold well.

Therefore, as much as it pains me to say it, Firaxis and their parent publisher have likely made the "correct" (in terms of profit) decision with Denuvo, even if it's an anticonsumer decision.

 

[Kwami]

The article doesn't establish how much Denuvo impacts performance. It only provides a lower bound. This lower bound is "close to 0". Such a lower bound is consistent both with it having a huge impact and almost no impact. Not being able to demonstrate that it causes slow downs is *not* the same thing as demonstrating it causes no slowdown. As such, it doesn't help much; being at most weak, inconclusive evidence towards it causing little slow downs.

Less than that. The author's goal was to get to the main menu, not to actually run and benchmark the game. He's assuming a minor performance impact based on the calls that he's been able to patch so far and how often they're triggered. But, he admits that there are other, unpatched calls remaining.

Therefore, as much as it pains me to say it, Firaxis and their parent publisher have likely made the "correct" (in terms of profit) decision with Denuvo, even if it's an anticonsumer decision.

The "correct" decision would be to remove Denuvo and to stop using anti-consumer DRM that serves no useful purpose.

 

[bladex1200]

The "correct" decision would be to remove Denuvo and to stop using anti-consumer DRM that serves no useful purpose.

I mean let's be honest and put our cards on the table here. If we're measuring correctness of decision by profit margins, which is at the end of the day what a game publisher cares about (and they fund Firaxis, thus the publisher's interest is Firaxis' interest):
- Piracy is not zero, there's a reason games get cracked. The latest versions of Denuvo packaged with recent games haven't been cracked or take time to crack, therefore Denuvo can be said to prevent a nonzero amount of piracy
- General consumer sentiment seems to indicate Denuvo is not a dealbreaker for most consumers and doesn't appear to significantly impact game sales (otherwise, games that would have been successful should have significant shortfalls in sales)

Therefore, Denuvo (and specifically Denuvo, not speaking to other DRMs or salesfronts that may be more inconvenient or performance-impacting) is a correct decision for the company to integrate with, regardless of its anti-consumer status. If consumers will put up with anti-consumer behavior, then it is not the wrong decision to carry it out if it has the opportunity to increase profits or reduce costs. That is why DLC passes, day-one DLC, and microtransactions are now the norm in many modern releases.

 

[stealth_nsk]

To sum it up, the inclusion of Denuvo is Firaxis business decision. We could debate about some points which are:
1. There are objective reasons to not like DRM, like performance impact (nobody have actual information about performance impact in this particular game, but this doesn't stop us from speculating)
2. There are subjective reasons to not like DRM - since Denuvo is infamous for its other product, it has quite negative brand and inclusion of even harmless anti-temper could potentially hurt sales
3. There's a questionable topic of preventing piracy. Again, there are no real evidence what making piracy harder actually improves sales. People who pirate games often don't want to pay for the game even if illegal version is not available
4. Finally, there's a cost of including Denuvo, which Firaxis pays. Both in actual money and in work for integration, additional testing and the like.

Now, each one of us could speculate about those topics, try to measure, which one is more impactful, etc. My estimation is what including Denuvo DRM is probably bad business decision, but in the end, it's not me who makes those decisions. And it clearly won't prevent me from buying the game (and, most likely, preordering).

 

[Kwami]

I mean let's be honest and put our cards on the table here. If we're measuring correctness of decision by profit margins, which is at the end of the day what a game publisher cares about (and they fund Firaxis, thus the publisher's interest is Firaxis' interest):
- Piracy is not zero, there's a reason games get cracked. The latest versions of Denuvo packaged with recent games haven't been cracked or take time to crack, therefore Denuvo can be said to prevent a nonzero amount of piracy
- General consumer sentiment seems to indicate Denuvo is not a dealbreaker for most consumers and doesn't appear to significantly impact game sales (otherwise, games that would have been successful should have significant shortfalls in sales)

Therefore, Denuvo (and specifically Denuvo, not speaking to other DRMs or salesfronts that may be more inconvenient or performance-impacting) is a correct decision for the company to integrate with, regardless of its anti-consumer status. If consumers will put up with anti-consumer behavior, then it is not the wrong decision to carry it out if it has the opportunity to increase profits or reduce costs. That is why DLC passes, day-one DLC, and microtransactions are now the norm in many modern releases.

The overwhelming majority of games, including AAA games and games that sell millions of copies, do not use Denuvo. Many of them are available DRM-free on GOG.

Businesses don't always make good decisions. Saddling paying customers with the drawbacks of Denuvo in the hopes of maybe, possibly getting a few more sales from would-be pirates is not a good decision.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I mean let's be honest and put our cards on the table here. If we're measuring correctness of decision by profit margins, which is at the end of the day what a game publisher cares about (and they fund Firaxis, thus the publisher's interest is Firaxis' interest):
- Piracy is not zero, there's a reason games get cracked. The latest versions of Denuvo packaged with recent games haven't been cracked or take time to crack, therefore Denuvo can be said to prevent a nonzero amount of piracy
- General consumer sentiment seems to indicate Denuvo is not a dealbreaker for most consumers and doesn't appear to significantly impact game sales (otherwise, games that would have been successful should have significant shortfalls in sales)

Therefore, Denuvo (and specifically Denuvo, not speaking to other DRMs or salesfronts that may be more inconvenient or performance-impacting) is a correct decision for the company to integrate with, regardless of its anti-consumer status. If consumers will put up with anti-consumer behavior, then it is not the wrong decision to carry it out if it has the opportunity to increase profits or reduce costs. That is why DLC passes, day-one DLC, and microtransactions are now the norm in many modern releases.

Yeah, I doubt that's true. If your argument was correct, most game companies would include Denovu or a competitor. The fallacy in your thinking is assuming that less piracy = more sales. I haven't seen any data on this, so I stand open to be proven wrong, but my view, based on an understanding of human nature and, especially, the nature of people who would pirate a game that they could more easily and safely just buy from Steam is that less or more piracy has nil effect on total sales. If Civ 7 isn't available to pirates for free, they're not going to buy Civ 7, they're going to play a game they can pirate.

 

[StargazingDog]

I look at it this way. I am a paying customer. I am paying full price for your game on Steam, which already has its own DRM. Why are you treating me as a criminal?

Also, Denuvo is not free, so all paying customers are subsidizing it.

I'll be buying this on PS5 instead, where I still have rights of resale with the physical disc, and am not directly supporting the use of Denuvo.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I wanted to highlight the community feedback survey currently available on Civ 7's page on Steam. It's an opportunity to express your overall feelings about what you've heard so far about Civ 7, what new features interest you, what you're concerned about, etc. Specifically to this thread, if you are less likely to buy the game because of Denuvo, you can say that, because they specially ask about it. Or if you're happy about or generally support them using Denuvo, you can say that, too, although I think you have to write that in under Other.

 

[Sherlock]

Steam just had a 'CiVII' survey. Lots of 'what do you want', 'what are you most interested in' questions.

They also asked 'what would encourage you to buy CiVII' and I told them..... Denuvo is a hard line. If they keep it in, no purchase. No kidding.