Civics Improvements Suggestions

[Vokarya]

I like the idea of Mercenary Camp for Mercenaries, but here are the stats I am considering: Requires Currency tech; +3 ; +2 ; +1 with Alcohol.

The +3 gold will help you maintain a garrison, but then you'll need to spend money to maintain a field force. The unhappiness can be moderated by alcohol, but not totally removed. I don't want to mess with health here. Happiness is more valuable than health at this point in the game.

 

[Sock Thing]

My only concern is that +2 seems fairly high for +3. You can't guarantee that you will have alcohol earlier on in the game if you don't have the resources it requires which is when the extra gold from mercenary would help the most. Maybe if it gave +4. Or perhaps if it gave an additional +1 with Brothel?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I don't really see why you would need such a thing to be honest. The civic is already rather well balanced as it is. This feels like you are giving it a building simply because you want to give it a building.

 

[Vokarya]

I've been thinking about what we can do with Society civics. I think right now they are not very focused and could use some adjusting.

In terms of what Society civics represent in-game, not pure mechanics, they should be somewhat complementary to Rule civics. Rule civics ask "Who's in charge?" Society civics ask "What happens to who isn't?"

So the original five Labor civics from BTS are all represented:

• Tribal is a society too primitive to have class distinctions.
• Slavery enslaves the lower class; I really think Slavery should be a Society civic rather than an Economy civic, but I do recognize the need for an Ancient Era Economy civic to get out from under the early drawbacks of Barter.
• Caste forces the lower class into castes by birth.
• Feudal/Serfdom [probable rename] binds the lower classes to a lord.
• Emancipation/Liberal/Free Society [possible rename] removes formal class barriers. Talent and drive are supposed to be the determiners of status.

Then there is room for a couple of our added civics:

• Bourgeois is social class based on wealth. If you have money, you're separate from those who do not.
• Communalism explicitly abolishes class of any kind.
  
• Hive beats down everyone who isn't part of the ruling class to the lowest common denominator.

The two that I'm not so sure are useful are Proletariat and Nationalist. Proletariat strikes me as way too modern for the Classical Era where it appears. Later on, I don't think it is distinguishable from Communalism.

Nationalist doesn't make sense either in this scheme, but Nationalism tech needs a civic. Nationalism has a trick count of 5 (Nationalist civic, Flagpole, National Anthem, Hermitage, Louvre) and removing the civic would knock it down to 2, which is a tech on life support. National Anthem could be made civic-free; it does require spending a Great Person and is a one-time bonus. I was thinking Federation could be moved here. I don't want to move Mobilization. Grand War only has a trick count of 3.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I always took Proletariat to refer to the sort of classical movement for equality that you see in places like Athenian Democracy where the entire (free) population forms the new ruling class. So I honestly feel that it does fill a useful place because it both provides roleplay room and gives you a counterbalance to the more top oriented systems.

As for Nationalist I honestly can not see how you can mix that up with Communism. The two might be tied to altering society but they address fundamentally different things within the social system. Communism addresses class differences where as nationalism addresses national ones. One is about who gets to hoard or share all the money and power whilst the other is about what you do to minorities and how you treat foreign nations.

EDIT:
Than again you should probably ignore everything I say and I should probably stop saying it. Put simply I was drawn to this mod by the fact that it is a complex, highly detailed thing with many intricate options that seem to be aimed at simulating history in a mechanical and roleplayi way and than making the game slow enough for the player to enjoy that. And if I was in charge I would take this mod even further down the road of realistic simulation with the civics in particular being designed to combine into mechanically accurate representations of historical societies such as the Roman Republic or Athenian Democracy (Democracy + proletariat).


You on the other hand obviously have no liking for the whole roleplay angle and only care about making the mechanics and visuals as simple and streamlined as you can in a bid for mechanical competency as if you were designing a game that's supposed to compete with chess and not FFH or RFC. And your method for this is to cut away and remove everything you can.
And this might sound extreme to you, but I honestly do mean it when I say that to me you often look like a child who, having just discovered scissors, has decided to gleefully take them to town on anything and everything it can get its hands on in ignorance of all goals save for seeing how tiny the pieces can be.

Therefore anything and everything I say is going to be diametrically opposed to you vision for the mod. And since this is your mod to rip and cut away at and I am just an end user that means the time has come for me to shut up and leave for a different product. Sad, but that's the breaks.

 

[zeroRPGmaker]

I'll chime in real quick. Complexity = more balancing, play-testing, and bugs = more time and workforce needed = not a very good overall experience. There is a reason why Civ V or Civ VI are dumbed down. They need to spit out a product and move on. I am 100% for decreasing complexity. Complexity has it's place and some like it, but a majority of people just want a slightly more indepth experience without all the fuss, which isn't well balance to begin with.

PPQ_Purple, if you love complexity, I strongly suggest the Europa Universalis if you haven't already tried it.

 

[Vokarya]

I'll chime in real quick. Complexity = more balancing, play-testing, and bugs = more time and workforce needed = not a very good overall experience. There is a reason why Civ V or Civ VI are dumbed down. They need to spit out a product and move on. I am 100% for decreasing complexity. Complexity has it's place and some like it, but a majority of people just want a slightly more indepth experience without all the fuss, which isn't well balance to begin with.

PPQ_Purple, if you love complexity, I strongly suggest the Europa Universalis if you haven't already tried it.

Exactly. My goal has never been complexity for its own sake. It's easy to just add things. Adding things that serve a purpose is harder. I don't want a tech tree full of filler techs, or a ton of buildings with tiny bonuses, or super-elaborate combat rules, or civics that alter 10 different areas. I like patterns and try to build them. Creating unified building lines, reinforcing low-trick techs with civics, and finding second uses for otherwise one-shot mechanics are what I'm about.

I'm not the first one to work on this mod. The roots of AND are in a Civ3 mod called Rise to Rule. Then it become Rise of Mankind, and then Rise of Mankind A New Dawn. So I feel like there were a lot of concepts that have been thrown together without anyone exploring the implications. A really good example is that someone added the Mounted Infantry from the Charlemagne mod, but then never went anywhere beyond adding it. So I took the concept of move-2 units that can get defensive bonuses and created the rest of the "mobile defense" line: Man-at-Arms, Dragoon, Mounted Rifleman, Motorized Infantry, finally linking it to the Mechanized Infantry. I'm both strengthening concepts that I think are worth keeping and cutting out the ones that I think are not.

Also, while I want this mod to be complete, I don't want it to be exhaustive. There are multiple things I want to do, but I don't feel they are appropriate to add to an already-complex mod. So I'm going to be packaging them as modmods. If you want them, you can install them yourself. So I want AND to be a solid core for creating modmods.

 

[<Nexus>]

I like the idea of Mercenary Camp for Mercenaries, but here are the stats I am considering: Requires Currency tech; +3 ; +2 ; +1 with Alcohol.

I don't see how those effects are related to a Mercenary Camp. Anger maybe, but the + ?

Bourgeois is social class based on wealth. If you have money, you're separate from those who do not.

Technically that's the same as Liberal. I think Bourgeois could be cut too.

The two that I'm not so sure are useful are Proletariat and Nationalist. Proletariat strikes me as way too modern for the Classical Era where it appears. Later on, I don't think it is distinguishable from Communalism.

Yepp, Proletariat is not needed.
Nationalist OTOH is justified in my view: There are two social classes: "nationally pure" and the others. Good examples are Nazi Germany and South-African apartheid.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Also, while I want this mod to be complete, I don't want it to be exhaustive. There are multiple things I want to do, but I don't feel they are appropriate to add to an already-complex mod. So I'm going to be packaging them as modmods. If you want them, you can install them yourself. So I want AND to be a solid core for creating modmods.

It's not about being exhaustive or complex for its own sake. What it's about is the underlying reason for the complexity or lack there off.

Basically what I like about the way it is set up now is that fundamentally the mod is designed with the goal of simulationism. In other words it exists as an attempt to make CIV into a semi competent simulation of human history that you can than play with. Sort of like RFC, only from a different approach. Where RFC does it by forcing a real world map and events you do it by creating mechanics that realistically simulate the underlying social, economic and military concepts that make these events happened. And if it was up to me the primary goal would be to continue down the line of simulationism. Any any complexity or lack there off would be in service of that goal.

You on the other hand don't really care about that at all and are more concerned with making the end result balanced and mechanically competent for its own sake.

 

[<Nexus>]

Basically what I like about the way it is set up now is that fundamentally the mod is designed with the goal of simulationism.

IIRC the devs have stated several times that it isn't designed that way
That's a side effect not the goal.
That's why I have started to create my own modmod, Chronicles.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

IIRC the devs have stated several times that it isn't designed that way
That's a side effect not the goal.
That's why I have started to create my own modmod, Chronicles.

So basically the only thing I ever liked about this mod is a random accident side effect.
Yea, that is most definitively a sign I should newer have gotten into the mod and discussions about it to begin with.

 

[Arakhor]

You on the other hand don't really care about that at all and are more concerned with making the end result balanced and mechanically competent for its own sake.

Being balanced and mechanically competent is absolutely vital for a strategy game.

 

[Sock Thing]

I don't see how those effects are related to a Mercenary Camp. Anger maybe, but the + ?


Technically that's the same as Liberal. I think Bourgeois could be cut too.


Yepp, Proletariat is not needed.
Nationalist OTOH is justified in my view: There are two social classes: "nationally pure" and the others. Good examples are Nazi Germany and South-African apartheid.

The idea that I had when I suggested Mercenary camp was that basically the city was allowing a mercenary company to set up a base camp either inside the city or on the outskirts so that the mercenaries would spend the money they get from their jobs in the city when they were not working. Of course a bunch of surly mercenaries wandering around threatening or beating up people gives the . The +1 from alcohol was supposed to represent them spending more time drunk in taverns rather than bored and causing trouble. Maybe it would be better to keep the +2 and have alcohol give +2 instead? as for Bourgeois I would rather keep it its efects are quite different from Liberal.

 

[Vokarya]

Technically that's the same as Liberal. I think Bourgeois could be cut too.

I think Bourgeois encourages neglect of the lower classes. I think "Dickensian" London during the Industrial Revolution is a good example here. Liberal passes laws to protect the lower classes.

Yepp, Proletariat is not needed.
Nationalist OTOH is justified in my view: There are two social classes: "nationally pure" and the others. Good examples are Nazi Germany and South-African apartheid.

That actually might be too dark, but I think I get what you are saying -- although with what you are suggesting, Fascism tech might be a better placement than Nationalism. I considered something along the lines of "Hierarchy" where every citizen is classified and ranked, but I don't know how well to justify it, or where it would fit on the tech tree.

 

[Vokarya]

The idea that I had when I suggested Mercenary camp was that basically the city was allowing a mercenary company to set up a base camp either inside the city or on the outskirts so that the mercenaries would spend the money they get from their jobs in the city when they were not working. Of course a bunch of surly mercenaries wandering around threatening or beating up people gives the . The +1 from alcohol was supposed to represent them spending more time drunk in taverns rather than bored and causing trouble. Maybe it would be better to keep the +2 and have alcohol give +2 instead? as for Bourgeois I would rather keep it its efects are quite different from Liberal.

Actually, + from resources is not supported by the XML. + is. Otherwise, I'd have Museum give + from Relics and Fossils, not +.

How about +military production, keeping the unhappiness penalty? Creating the Mercenary Camp gives the mercenaries a place to gather and be recruited from, but with a different drawback from Recruitment Center.

Side note: Draft Office and Recruitment Center need to be better differentiated. Draft Office is +25% military production at the cost of +25% food for city growth and +1 unhappiness, while Recruitment Center is +25% military production at the cost of just +5% food for growth. They are keyed to different civics so they don't directly compete but I think they shouldn't be so similar.

 

[Vokarya]

We've got a lot of military civic buildings that all increase unit production: Draft Office for Conscription/Mobilization, Recruitment Center for Volunteer Army, Missile Lab (Missiles only) for MAD, and possibly Mercenary Camp for Mercenaries. I wonder if there is something else we can do with some of them. I don't think it's possible to affect drafting production, but I do think that drafting ANGER can be reduced from buildings. Is this worth pursuing?

 

[<Nexus>]

That actually might be too dark, but I think I get what you are saying -- although with what you are suggesting, Fascism tech might be a better placement than Nationalism. I considered something along the lines of "Hierarchy" where every citizen is classified and ranked, but I don't know how well to justify it, or where it would fit on the tech tree.

That sounds either like Caste system or something futuristic.

 

[Vokarya]

That sounds either like Caste system or something futuristic.

That is true. I was thinking along the futuristic lines.

I'm still not getting how Nationalist fits into the rest of the society civics. Citizen vs. noncitizen feels like it could be Slavery or Caste as well.

I think the "original five" + Bourgeois/Communalism/Hive is pretty set; we do need to figure out what Slavery is going to do and do we need another Ancient Era Economy civic.

 

[Vokarya]

More thoughts.

I'm still wrestling with that Theocracy civic building. I think Holy Order might be the best. It's pretty clear on the name. I'd like to give something to Theology tech because its tricks are limited to compared to Holy War and Chivalry.

Holy War has Inquisitor, Intolerant civic, free Great Prophet, King Richard's Crusade, and the Crusader/Fanatic promotions. Crusader is technically here as well, but it's only available as an aftermath of King Richard's Crusade. Chivalry has Knight, Noble Knight, Royal Tournament, Blarney Castle, Himeji Castle, and Equestrians Master Guild.

Theology only has founding Christianity, Angkor Wat, Hagia Sophia, and Seminary, but Seminary is hanging on by a thread -- the only time to pick it up at Theology would be if you were running State Church or Free Church off Shwedagon Paya. To get the civic normally, you'd need to go up at least one tech to Papacy.

Since Theocracy will be able to do Inquisitions, I think we can give the Inquisitor to Theology.

 

[Sock Thing]

Actually, + from resources is not supported by the XML. + is. Otherwise, I'd have Museum give + from Relics and Fossils, not +.

How about +military production, keeping the unhappiness penalty? Creating the Mercenary Camp gives the mercenaries a place to gather and be recruited from, but with a different drawback from Recruitment Center.

Side note: Draft Office and Recruitment Center need to be better differentiated. Draft Office is +25% military production at the cost of +25% food for city growth and +1 unhappiness, while Recruitment Center is +25% military production at the cost of just +5% food for growth. They are keyed to different civics so they don't directly compete but I think they shouldn't be so similar.

Okay well I'd still like to keep some on the building if possible. I do have a couple other ideas though.

1.) have the building decrease the war weariness penalty further (personally I think that mercenaries should have the lowest penalty not volunteer)

2.) I doubt this one is possible but could you make it so that at a certain point the building makes it so that you can train a special unit? we could call it Doppelsoldner (double pay men)

3.) Change the name of the heal promotion (not medic) to Replacements and give it to some or all types of units for free. This would represent the mercenaries hiring on more men wherever they are when they take loses rather than having to wait for them to come from the homeland.