Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

[Fife]

I just won't use it. Promblem solved!!!!

 

[tom2050]

There are people on this forum who review Civ4 as being worse than Civ3. Make sure you pick the right people to listen to.

There are people who enjoy Alpha Centauri more than Civ 4 as well... are you saying that they are a bunch of mindless idiots as well?

 

[Fife]

I don't believe most of the people that use this site are complete idiots... Although I prefer civ4

 

[tom2050]

Senethro is saying that unless your review of Civ 4 is higher than any other game in the Universe, you are 'the wrong person to listen to'.

Moderator Action:
Senthro certainly doesn't need you to speak for him or interpret his posts to others. Your post contributes nothing meaningful to the discussion and only erodes civility. Please stop speaking for others.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889


So, to Sene You can't have a game you like better than Civ 4, or you just don't know what you are talking about, and thus you must be a mindless idiot...

It's a strange logic he is using there.

 

[radioplug]

Steam lead to overpriced impulse buys? I only buy anything that's on sale. I've only ever paid more than 10 dollars for two games: TES:IV and Lego Star Wars (complete). I also purchased the Rockstar Pack and iD pack which were more than 10 dollars, but came out to less than 3/4 dollars per game.

I've spent $205.60 on 67 games. The true value according to steamcalculator.com (a site that adds retail value of all games) is $1000.33. So I've saved almost 80%.

I'm just saying...there is a lot of misinformation about it.

I will say though that CiV will probably be the first purchase I make more than $40 dollars on there.

 

[Fife]

Well civ 4 is good. But it is not the best game in the known universe. Who knows? Maybe Aliens have their own civilization.

 

[Ahriman]

There are people who enjoy Alpha Centauri more than Civ 4 as well... are you saying that they are a bunch of mindless idiots as well?

Nope. SMAC is a far superior game to Civ3 IMO. SMAC vs Civ4? Tossup, I'd go with Civ4 for modability, but reasonable people can disagree.

 

[tom2050]

Nope. SMAC is a far superior game to Civ3 IMO. SMAC vs Civ4? Tossup, I'd go with Civ4 for modability, but reasonable people can disagree.

Senethro thinks that you should not be listened to, because unless you feel that Civ 4 is superior to A.C., you just don't know what you are talking about then. And you would fall into w/e category Senethro has created for the 'crazies that don't see Civ 4 as the best game since the Big Bang'.

Moderator Action: Senthro certainly doesn't need you to speak for him or interpret his posts to others. Your post contributes nothing meaningful to the discussion and only erodes civility. Please stop speaking for others.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Fife]

Both are good. They're made by the same person for peet's sake!!

 

[Ahriman]

Senethro thinks that you should not be listened to, because unless you feel that Civ 4 is superior to A.C., you just don't know what you are talking about then. And you would fall into w/e category Senethro has created

Source?

 

[PieceOfMind]

Long way off topic now so I'm finally going to spoiler the post.

Spoiler :

But if my kid's math teacher had them play Civ for a week in math class instead of actually teaching anything, I'd be pretty upset.

I would too tbh, unless there was a good reason for it.

And I'd be equally upset if they assigned playing Civ as a homework assignment (and if school resources were being used to pay for a copy of Civ on the home computers of every student).

Agreed. I wouldn't suggest replacing the usual homework. And lol I definitely wouldn't suggest paying for individual copies of the game for each student. Cmon that's pretty absurd.

Students learn by doing. Yes, they learn a little from playing a game like civ.
But its perfectly possible to play Civ without doing any mathematic calculations at all.

Doing maths doesn't require doing calculations.

And so there would be plenty of kids goofing off in hard to monitor ways, and plenty of kids not learning anything at all.

Yes that sort of set up would likely be a bad idea, though it would depend on the normal behaviour of the class.

So I think its more productive to teach in a way where students are doing something that guarantees that they're actually doing learning.

Interesting way to put it. Never mind it's impossible to completely guarantee learning. But that's a pedantic point I admit. I assume you do appreciate that effective teachers usually use a mixture of teaching techniques, else they become stale and ineffective to their class. I've done this myself (not mixing things up enough), and have learned from that sort of mistake.

Its not that Civ can't teach things. But its that regular classwork generally teaches more effectively given the same number of hours.

Yes, and again I'm not advocating taking up valuable class hours. If it was incorporated into a well constructed lesson it might work, but from the way you've been describing it being used, I agree it would be ineffective.

And I'm not the only one - if Grouchey and I can agree on something.... ;-)

There's always something any two people can agree on.

I kinda resent the implication that we're just incapable of understanding educational psychology.

Sorry I don't mean to make so harsh an implication. You did call yourself an educational conservative. I take that as generally meaning someone resistant (or at least hesitant) to change, preferring old-fashioned or traditional or even "proven" techniques, if you will. Nothing wrong with that, and honestly, being too open to alternative techniques is not a good thing either. Striking a balance somewhere in between is IMO a good way to go.

Harmless, I have no problem with that.

Harmless perhaps. The question is it beneficial?

I thought we were talking about older kids (primary school ~5-9?). Kids beyond this *don't* get much playtime in their classes.

I was using primary school children to highlight how children (at any age IMO) can learn quite a lot when they're having fun, for example playing games. The age I've been most interested in is the early high school stage - around 12 to 16 years old.

I think Civ is a little too complex for kds in primary school.

You'd be surprised. I was playing civ1 before I was 10. I couldn't appreciate everything in the game obviously but many things like the tax system, battle probabilities, ADM values, city sizes, number of turns for air units etc. etc. made enough sense to me. I think games can in general bring down pretty big barriers for children. If it's in a game like civ, they don't even think of it as maths and so they don't automatically attach the stigma and start blocking it out as being just another educational thing where they have to do 'work'.

As I said earlier, I don't think we're reaching an agreement here but thank you for the discussion. I really do like seeing well thought out views on this sort of thing.

 

[Senethro]

Tom, you clearly haven't done your research on me and seen the 1000+posts I have in the Alpha Centauri forum at Apolyton.

Also, my top 5 of games is

Planescape: Torment
Alpha Centauri
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Enemy Territory Series
Thief? No, Deus Ex. Or maybe Stalker. Or Vampire: Bloodlines. Damnit, theres still System Shock. And Morrowind. Hell, some good first person RPG. Whatever, 5 is too short.

 

[Gelvan]

Nope. SMAC is a far superior game to Civ3 IMO. SMAC vs Civ4? Tossup, I'd go with Civ4 for modability, but reasonable people can disagree.

AC clearly is much superiour to civ3 - but I think the modability of civ4 has created modders who created mods that are not better but something completely different and therefore at pair with AC if you look on the "how much fun is it"-factor. (of course fun is indiviual ).

I personally think Planetfall is as much AC2 as civ2 was not civ1. of course planetfall can't be the SAME thing as AC. what would be the point of creating a clone? a clone always would be less than the original. Planetfall did it right, by creating something new, with civ4 elements and AC elements for a NEW game.

I really have no idea what my point was, but I like all of them, even civ3 (even though I haven't played it since civ4/FFH2 came out.)

 

[Senethro]

Bonus post: Top 5 mods.

Fall from Heaven
The Nameless Mod
Air Buccaneers
Dear Esther
Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age

 

[Ahriman]

Spoiler :

And lol I definitely wouldn't suggest paying for individual copies of the game for each student. Cmon that's pretty absurd.

Well, you'd kinda have to if you were assigning it as homework.

Doing maths doesn't require doing calculations.

Let me rephrase then; its perfectly possible to play Civ (particularly if you aren't very good, don't really know what you're doing, or aren't trynig to win) without doing any math.
For plenty of kids it could be mindless clicking.

I assume you do appreciate that effective teachers usually use a mixture of teaching techniques, else they become stale and ineffective to their class

Sure.

But when I was in high school, I think teachers generally had kids play "learning" games like Civ or SimCity or Diplomacy (boardgame) or watch a video as an excuse for having a real lesson plan. It was a way for teachers to have a low-stress class where they could sit around and catch up on grading.
I (and most others) learned nothing from these.

If it was incorporated into a well constructed lesson it might work,

I find it hard to see how you could incorporate it into just a single lesson or two. For kids in particular who don't have prior experience, its going to take quite a while for them to even figure out what is going on, more than just a part of a single lesson. Let alone play much of a game.

Interesting way to put it.

Let me rephrase; guarantee that they're actually doing something math-related.

Striking a balance somewhere in between is IMO a good way to go.

Sure.

The question is it beneficial?

Depends what the alternative is.
At the school I went to in New Zealand, where most people were outside playing games or sports, or reading.
But then at many schools in big cities in the US, kids are just locked in a cafeteria through lunch.

I was playing civ1 before I was 10.

I am guessing that you had more of a background with computers than the median/lower quartile student, and were of generally higher ability than the median/lower quartile student.

I played Civ1 when it came out, but I'm old.

 

[Ahriman]

Also, my top 5 of games is

These comparisons are always hard. Best as of when they came out, or best even today?

Planescape Torment is absolutely on my list, and is my case in point for anyone saying video games can't be art, because they don't make you "feel".

Anyone who didn't feel emotion watching (though one of the memory crystals) their old self shamelessly manipulate poor Deionarra is dead inside. Plus, Morte was comic gold.

Otherwise:
Civ4, Company of Heroes, Starcraft, Deus Ex. And maybe Baldur's Gate 2/ToB, and Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2.

 

[MaxCiv]

Steam has this ability, you just have to hope and pray that the hidden underlaying DRM EXE checker (or w/e it may use) doesn't think the legit software is illegal and doesn't permanently ban your whole account.

If it doesn't, great! Otherwise, you need to go gameless while proving you are innocent to the Big Steam Brother.

Chances are, it is nothing to worry about and probably doesn't happen often, but the chance is unknown.

You clearly don't have a clue of what you are talking about and you are inventing new conspiracy theories. Do you have any proof that the statements above are even close to reality? Why do you keep spreading FUD?

When you add non-steam game to your Steam client, all you do is the equivalent of creating a shortcut in your game list. This is usually done for convenience and the game you add will not have the same options of Steam games (auto updates, etc).

It has nothing to do with DRM, it doesn't check the authenticity of the exe file, it doesn't call the cops on you, it is just shortcut in the game list.

 

[tom2050]

You clearly don't have a clue of what you are talking about and you are inventing new conspiracy theories. Do you have any proof that the statements above are even close to reality? Why do you keep spreading FUD?

When you add non-steam game to your Steam client, all you do is the equivalent of creating a shortcut in your game list. This is usually done for convenience and the game you add will not have the same options of Steam games (auto updates, etc).

It has nothing to do with DRM, it doesn't check the authenticity of the exe file, it doesn't call the cops on you, it is just shortcut in the game list.

Online accounts claim otherwise... so if you think all of those people are lying, then you are in the conspiracy theory mode. I don't necessarily believe them or not believe them, but I don't think it's some huge fabricated thing going on.

And being a DRM mechanism, it would make sense that they don't allow pirated games to be run on Steam. Do you think Steam lets people use Steam to run Pirate Copies? Steam is their own cops, they can check an exe run through their program if they choose to.

Most pirates probably don't complain about it if their Steam account gets closed after trying to run pirated software through Steam (as stupid as that would be to do). But if a legit user has trouble, it is worth letting people know about it. Most people probably don't use that function anyways, so not a big deal.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Ahriman

Spoiler :

Well, you'd kinda have to if you were assigning it as homework.
We could go round in circles. (jumping to conclusions all the time, that is) For starters, there could be a class computer, a couple of computers with it installed in the computer room, or some other arrangement.

Let me rephrase then; its perfectly possible to play Civ (particularly if you aren't very good, don't really know what you're doing, or aren't trynig to win) without doing any math.
For plenty of kids it could be mindless clicking.
True. For many kids, math exercises are mindless manipulations as well. Surely there's always a risk some kids won't learn as much as others do. A task involving civ certainly doesn't need to be assigned to someone who has zero interest in the game or who clearly could not get any benefit from it based on their current level of development.
<I'm a bit tired now, so this point is probably not very clear and I'm leaving myself wide open to counter argument, but such is life.>

Sure.

But when I was in high school, I think teachers generally had kids play "learning" games like Civ or SimCity or Diplomacy (boardgame) or watch a video as an excuse for having a real lesson plan. It was a way for teachers to have a low-stress class where they could sit around and catch up on grading.
I (and most others) learned nothing from these.

Ah interesting. By high school, I think the best we ever got to do in spare class time was minesweeper or solitaire.
I am honestly surprised you flatly say you learned nothing from these. Particularly with the board game, and assuming you didn't all sit in silence playing civ or simcity individually, I bet you were all talking with each other. I'm sure you know this (don't want to sound too preachy) but students learn arguably more effectively from each other - peers - than they do from teachers. Whether it's a cultural, generational or language gap - whatever you want to call it - it is real IMO. No matter how "with it" I think I am, I simply am not.
Anyway, those easy lessons may have had little obvious educational value in terms of the outcomes for the subject and so on, but can you deny they had any value? Even schoolchildren deserve occasional breaks. It shouldn't always be viewed as a waste of time. Are they not building relationships etc. etc.



I find it hard to see how you could incorporate it into just a single lesson or two. For kids in particular who don't have prior experience, its going to take quite a while for them to even figure out what is going on, more than just a part of a single lesson. Let alone play much of a game.
It's true. Probably would be difficult to put in a single lesson. I'm sure there would be ways to work it into a fun assignment (for maybe 12-14 year olds), where there are other alternatives that are similarly fun. The project might require playing through at least one game and giving a report on how a particular math topic is related. It's a fact that these days there are a lot of "geeky" and very computer literate children who are pretty young. I bet many would jump at the option of getting to play a game as part of a "fun" assignment.
As for a single lesson, maybe you could build a mod that is a heavily restricted scenario such that it is not as epic as the normal game. Remember civ4 is incredibly moddable. However now we're talking about a teacher spending a lot of time building a mod.

I am guessing that you had more of a background with computers than the median/lower quartile student, and were of generally higher ability than the median/lower quartile student.

Probably but not by much. I didn't know how to do much with computers, but the family was lucky to have more than one computer, so there was always a computer one step down from the business computer that was available for us to play games. I think civ1 was loaded up through DOS, and I still have memories of how confusing the DOS console commands were, which my older brother seemed to know how to do.
I was probably most different in that I was a bit of a numbers kid at an early age, as was my older brother. I remember he had worked out with pen and paper strategies for civ1 that were shown to me as if they were gospel. Things like putting a phalanx in every new city. What city growth thresholds there were based on which buildings the city had. etc.

My ability to grapple civ1 way back then would certainly not be exceptional by today's standards. Heck we didn't even have the internet back then


I played Civ1 when it came out, but I'm old.
So you have wisdom to share. By the way, I have such fond memories from around the time I played civ1, it's part of the reason an iconic part of it is in my avatar. I remember specifically getting to go home 5 minutes early, along with a few other lucky kids, from a class in grade 2 (about age 8 I guess) because I was able to think of a word starting with 'ph'. Can you guess what it was? It's funny actually, the teacher didn't know what it meant, and neither did I really, but she seemed to believe my explanation that it was an ancient military unit (I didn't even know it carried a spear). I probably freaked her out that day.

 

[MaxCiv]

Online accounts claim otherwise... so if you think all of those people are lying, then you are in the conspiracy theory mode. I don't necessarily believe them or not believe them, but I don't think it's some huge fabricated thing going on.

Can you link these accounts where it is claimed that adding a shortcut to a non-steam game (legit or not) in the Steam client's game list resulted in the ban of the Steam account in question?

And being a DRM mechanism, it would make sense that they don't allow pirated games to be run on Steam. Do you think Steam lets people use Steam to run Pirate Copies? Steam is their own cops, they can check an exe run through their program if they choose to.

The only games that run "through" Steam are the one that you buy from Steam. Adding a shortcut to an exe in your game list is no different that creating the same shortcut on your desktop or quick launch bar.

Most pirates probably don't complain about it if their Steam account gets closed after trying to run pirated software through Steam (as stupid as that would be to do). But if a legit user has trouble, it is worth letting people know about it. Most people probably don't use that function anyways, so not a big deal.

Pirates don't need a Steam account since they bypass it completely. Your "warnings" are useful only if they are based on actual proven facts