Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[myturn]

For 2KGreg:

Is there any particular reason you are not doing some ‘incremental’ FAQ?
I think that would really ease some tensions here.

I’m not saying that you’re doing nothing but you know, people would see that something is being done from time to time.

 

[allypower]

2K Greg will you answer my question?

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

I am going to ask this question again.

I have a question or few of them. About compatibility of different versions of a single game alongside with different versions of DLCs.

What if I buy the retail version of the game, and then some kind of a dlc is released later that can only be downloaded from Steam or other online vendors (meaning that there is no available retail version), will it be compatible? I have had this experience with owning Tropico 3 the retail version and could not use it with the DLC "Absolute Power" from Steam. And furthermore, there were I suppose, other online vendors having their version of the DLC not working with Steam version of Tropico3 as well as the non-Steam vendor's own version of the DLC not working with the retail version of the game.

Is 2k only permitting Steam as the only online provider for its Civilization 5 games, and possible new DLCs in the later future?

Moderator Action: no need to yell

 

[PieceOfMind]

The choice to use Steamworks was a decision by both 2K and Firaxis. Although really it's silly to even make a distinction between the two; we're both parts of the same company and we work as closely together as, for example, different groups at Firaxis do. We're all the same team.

Steamworks is a great thing for the developer; it allows them to make a better game. It's a lot like why most people use DirectX or OpenGL instead of writing their own 3d renderer from scratch.

So, even if you don't plan on using the specific features that Steamworks allows the developers to implement very easily (like multiplayer,) it still gets you a better overall game because those features (which would be there no matter what framework, if any, was decided on) took less time to implement.

What I'm trying to say is that it's good for the developer because it allows them to make a better game overall. The singleplayer experience in Civilization V is better than it would have been without Steamworks, because it allowed them to implement all of the Steamworks-supported features a lot quicker and easier.

I saw that Grouchey sort of already asked the same thing as what I want to:

Hey Greg I appreciate your wading into the discussion with these points, it's helpful. Specifically what are the Steamworks features that allow the developers to implement very easily that would be in the game regardless? Will you please list them all if you can?

I appreciate these questions may be difficult but honest answers to them would go a long way to help people understand the actions taken by 2K or TakeTwo.
I am asking you, 2K Greg, the following things:

1. Why does Steamworks allow Firaxis to make a better game? A brief explanation (not even a whole paragraph) is all I'm asking for, but a couple of specific reasons would be lovely. I hope this question is relevant to a Steamworks FAQ. It's probably a question that many who don't want Steam would readily ask. Many are specifically interested in the benefits to the single-player game which you mentioned. However I can appreciate many of the reasons for using Steamworks are probably MP-related. I'd expect the MP-functionality to be the biggest reason actually.
2. Would it be possible to get any sort of comment on the negotiations between Valve and 2K/Firaxs? To an outsider like myself, some of the decisions that have been made, like putting a deluxe edition as exclusive download on Steam, seem to have an obvious financial incentive behind them and by that I mean one coming from Valve. I fail to see why a deluxe edition would not be released as a retail copy unless there is an attractive contract made with Valve.

Honestly, I'm not expecting answers to these questions (mainly the second one ). They are the things I really want to know though.

 

[Tylerryan79]

This may have been asked already, but here goes...

In order to play mods, must you be in "online" mod to install/use them?

Once in offline mode, can I switch between mods, without going into online mode?

Can we download mods from a third party site, on computer x, then burn them, then bring them to computer y, install/play them in offline mode?

Thanks.

 

[myturn]

It seems to me that questions like ‘may I play offline’ or ‘who made decision to integrate Steam’ or similar are worth answering several times, within seconds. (with a lot of ‘believe me’- I’ve noticed)

And some, which would have at least shortened delay of info in some way, are just conveniently skipped over.

People here are not running around maps and lurking through windows with weapons- their gaming experience doesn’t require reflexes, it requires strategy and tactics and planning (sometimes while comfortably laid back in their chair I might add)= lot of brain work = logic. You have to deliver rational and meaningful answer. At least you should try.

So if question is:

Is there any particular reason you are not doing some ‘incremental’ FAQ?

You have two simple answers- yes and no.
If yes, one line explanation would be expected. (I could speculate but I guess we’ll here it from you)
If no, what are you waiting for?

My suggestion:
You could just post questions you included in FAQ and then fill in the blanks when answer is ready- that way you won’t be swamped within tons of additional questions and demands for clarifications that you should expect anyway.

 

[Tylerryan79]

Myturn, I understand your frustration of having seen little feed back on this particular thread. 2kgreg said the end of June he will have this faq done and posted. Maybe we could all wait till then before we start these kinds of posts asking for results asap. Maybe some of these questions will be answered at e3, and therefore he isnt allowed to answer them until official release at e3. I only post this for you to think about, and in no way care if you continue to try and light a fire under his arse.

 

[myturn]

I'm not frustrated at all. As for lighting fire under his arse, man, you've made me laugh out loud . Really that’s not my intention at all.
I’m aware of E3 and personally I don’t expect that he reveal any relevant info before that.
And in that case his honest answer could be appreciated (and very easing for lot of people here):
‘Yes there is a reason. I can’t reveal anything you don’t know before E3.’- for example.

I'll (be a good boy and) refrain from asking further questions and making sugestions about FAQ.

EDIT:
Just read todays comic at notquitewrong.com. Really sums it up for me.

 

[Tylerryan79]

Dont stop asking questions please, we need them asked/answered. Also Im glad I made you laugh I know where your coming from, just as you see what Im saying. But please ask questions.... Your turn lol. Jk anyways i dont like seeming like some sort of know all be all, and like I already have stated, make suggestions and ask questions.

I for one wouldnt mind gregs first post be updated with all the questions he has, and answers listed for the ones he has answers to. Much like the "Known Features" post by bite is set up. Great suggestion My Turn, and I second it.

 

[Davor]

Here is my question. It has been asked before, but I think it needs mentioning again.

How will steam improve making the game for Firaxis? To me this seems like a bull crap statement, so I am really interested in reading a response from this. To me, Firaxis seemed to make a good game in Civ IV without Steam so how is Steam going to make it better?

Also I have the Civfanatics community, why do I want a new community?

Why can't we register on Firaxis web site? Why do we need Steam? Is this just another way to get some people into steam to buy more games?

Also if playing in off line mode, how will Steam installed on my computer know there is an update? To me that means there is either a timer telling the Steam on my PC to connect or that Steam is connecting online without our knowladge. So saying register once and never go online again seems false.

Why can't you just have the game read off the DVD? Isn't that good enough DRM?

I am looking forward to your comments and FAQ.

 

[ori]

Hey Ori, could you check to see if this still happens in the latest Steam client update?

Sorry for the late reply - right around the time you posted this my laptop's display broke off and the integrated keyboard lost a few working keys and the external keyboard wouldn't work (did I mention the extended warranty lapsed two weeks ago? ) - I am certain Steam used some of their secret powers to do that

That said: I just now tested it, things I did for those so inclined as to repeat the stuff:

1) Started Steam client in online mode and allowed it to update itself and the game that is installed.
2) Set it to offline mode
3) Restarted the computer
4) Started Microsoft Network Monitor 3.3
5) Set it to capture network traffic
6) Started Steam client
7) It asked to start in offline mode and asked the firewall to permit network access.
8) Started it in offline mode and allowed it network access
9) It talked (up- and download) with IP address 72.165.61.190
10) Repeated 3-8: it talked with server 69.28.153.82
11) Repeated 3-8: it talked with server 87.248.196.194

Things noticed:
The update did change the behavior. Previously it talked to 2-3 servers at the same time, now it only talks to one. Previously the exchanged packages were of fixed width and about 2-3 times the current total size. Now they are of varying width but the total transferred information is only 30-50% of the previous size and up- and downloads seem to be similar in size. The download size doesn't seem to have changed much the upload size is reduced.
Comparing it to online mode: the behavior in online mode prior to entering the user password is almost exactly what it was in offline mode prior to this update.

 

[2K Greg]

1. Why does Steamworks allow Firaxis to make a better game?

I did my best to explain that in the posts you quoted in your post.

Also I have the Civfanatics community, why do I want a new community?

The use of Steam is in no way meant to replace the Civfanatics community! The Steam features should allow you to interact with the Civfanatics community even easier than before. The in-game web browser allows you to, for example, open up CFC threads from within the game to use as quick reference, or to easily post about the game you're playing.

That's just one example. Another is the way you can create a Steam group and invite a bunch of likeminded people (I'm sure there will be a CFC group!) to make inviting to multiplayer games much easier.

In no way is 2K or Firaxis trying to replace our many awesome community sites.

Also if playing in off line mode, how will Steam installed on my computer know there is an update?

It doesn't.

Why can't you just have the game read off the DVD

Like most games, you can install the game off the DVD, which prevents you from needing to download the game. There will still be a boxed version in the store.

 

[2K Greg]

Sorry for the late reply[...]

Thanks ori. I've been told by Steam that there was a bug in the old client that was causing it to connect to extra servers it didn't need to, and that it was fixed in the latest version.

My personal opinion is that the one server it's connecting to now is probably just to check to see if you have an active internet connection, so it knows whether or not to display the "do you want to go back to online mode?" popup.

 

[ori]

it does however show the popup regardless
in fact it connects even after you have had that popup and told it to go offline (if the permissions are only granted afterwards)

It definitely has no influence on the popup since that comes up if there is no internet connection, if there is one but it cannot use it and if it finds an active internet connection.
It might still be just a check - though it could also exchange some pertinent information, its just impossible to know from this side...

 

[Drakarska]

I did my best to explain that in the posts you quoted in your post.



The use of Steam is in no way meant to replace the Civfanatics community! The Steam features should allow you to interact with the Civfanatics community even easier than before. The in-game web browser allows you to, for example, open up CFC threads from within the game to use as quick reference, or to easily post about the game you're playing.

That's just one example. Another is the way you can create a Steam group and invite a bunch of likeminded people (I'm sure there will be a CFC group!) to make inviting to multiplayer games much easier.

In no way is 2K or Firaxis trying to replace our many awesome community sites.




It doesn't.



Like most games, you can install the game off the DVD, which prevents you from needing to download the game. There will still be a boxed version in the store.

1) ok. Your stating "should" allow. So you have hard, definable facts that Steam will allow us to interact with CFC? Especially with Valve's/Steam's ambiguous EULA? Mind posting a link to where that is a fact plz?

2) Appreciate the PR spin, but I actually like to choose my groups to whom I belong. Not have them thrust upon me because that's the only choice I will have because of a potential Steam monopoly.

3) Not to sure about Firaxis, because they don't allow you to join a forum there ( hmnn, wonder why?), but having a rep fm a company state publicly that info was gathered from many fans and forums ( which I cannot find any links to, or even remember putting my input in.. strange.) about Steamworks and then pretty much go silent ( even on their own site) does not really inspire trust on my end. And I won't even bring up any of 2K's legal troubles

4) So( brews a fresh pot o' java), by all means thrill me with a dazzling display of your spin doctor prowess

 

[2K Greg]

1) ok. Your stating "should" allow. So you have hard, definable facts that Steam will allow us to interact with CFC? Especially with Valve's/Steam's ambiguous EULA? Mind posting a link to where that is a fact plz?

I just explained one of the ways it'll work. The in-game browser is pretty cool, especially in the latest major Steam client overhaul. It'll be a really great asset for mods, among other things.

2) Appreciate the PR spin, but I actually like to choose my groups to whom I belong. Not have them thrust upon me because that's the only choice I will have because of a potential Steam monopoly.

You can, of course, pick what groups you want to join. I was just giving an example

 

[Grouchey]

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind View Post
1. Why does Steamworks allow Firaxis to make a better game?

Answer Posted by 2K Greg
I did my best to explain that in the posts you quoted in your post.

Sorry Greg, but your answer for the single player above isn't satisfactory. I truly want to see things from the Company's perspective but all you've really offered us is a truism -- that if you outsource certain things, you may spend your time doing other things. There are many other possibilities:

Firaxis/2K could have laid off staff or cut back on hours;
Firaxis/2K could have outsourced the exact same work to someone else, perhaps they outsourced the same work for CIV IV;
Firaxis/2K could have paid Steam for its specific services and/or passed the cost along to us, leaving less money in the CIV V budget for other kinds of development and/or making us pay more for the same game;
Firaxis/2K could be doing the exact same amount of work on CIV V, that they would have done without Steam but the game will now be released earlier, which is good for you but doesn't make it a better game whatsoever.

In other words, you haven't explained what specific role Steam plays in making CIV V a better game for single player. I would appreciate more specifics. Thanks!

 

[Achilleslastand]

The last 2 Total War titles have been on steam so heres my 02 cents on the subject. Using Steam has all but killed ETW online and NTW online....you can choose to play on whatever server you like{there are around 10 in the US and 30 or more worldwide}. So if im hosting on the dallas server the only people that can join the game are the people on that server.
Having decentralized servers really hurts the online community and plus they dont even have a online lobby for one and all which is a real negative.
I hope Civ5 is differnet but we shall see...............

 

[Canabrava]

My question (again):

There is a Civ 5 portuguese language version? If yes, there are same DLC like english versions?

 

[radioplug]

Man oh man...the Steam haters are in full force.

Just a question for the Steam haters...who exactly of you lot use Steam? For one person like me, who uses it extensively, some of these issues you are raising are quite ridiculous. Also, how many of you have used Steam after Half-Life 2 (because even I would admit that it was terrible prior to that point!)

Steam cannot replace Civfanatics. Yes, they have forums, but have any of you see what they're like. They're rudimentary at best, and usually it is full of questions concerning the purchase of said game on steam and possible fixes if the game doesn't work properly.

Maybe you like having the DVD's and searching for serial codes and stuff. I can tell you for a college aged student, that is too much of a hassle. I like the convenience of downloading a game and installing/uninstalling whenever I want with no penalties.

You don't need to be connected to the internet to play on Steam. Steam offers a chance of patching a game without you having to fuss through it. Any modders who know what they're doing can easily mod using Steam. (Look to TES:IV for encouragement. I just downloaded about 20 mods yesterday and they all run perfectly.) I also see the concern about the offline play when having an internet connection. I once had this problem, got quite frustrated, until I realized I really wasn't connected to the internet at all. Steam's issues with that also seem to occur less with their new version that just came out maybe a month ago.

So, for those who haven't really used it before, I know where you're coming from. I hated the idea of Steam at first. However, I have really warmed up to it and now, I never buy a game at Best Buy (usually because I wait for the games I want until a nice sale comes out. For instance, I bought Civ IV (with all the expansions) for 10 dollars. I already had Civ IV but none of the expansions and well...I would have easily paid 30 dollars for that at Best Buy.)

So for those that are worried Steam will replace Civfanatics (and yes I'm new here), you guys are crazy. I'm not trying to be mean, but in no way can Steam ever replace the hardcore communities and from an outsider's glance, as I was until today, Civfanatics is one of those hardcore communities.

Also, steam does work on an external harddrive. I did it for years until I finally upgraded to a new laptop. Simply, install steam on your external harddrive. There are a few ways to do this, but don't let this misinformation deter you from buying the game. You absolutely can run any steam game off of any drive you want as long as you install steam on the appropriate drive.

I kind of understand I won't be popular for taking the "I love Steam" approach, but I've used it now for over 4 years (really more like 8 but seriously for 4) and I have had almost no complaints. I suggest the haters just try it if they haven't already. It's tough to criticize something you haven't ever tried.