Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

According to 2K Greg: You don't even need the product key once you've registered it with your Steam account. All you need is your username and password.

Although it's advisable to hold on to your product key, as it is one method of providing proof of ownership of your account.


Excuse me, but I queried this issue earlier in this post. I installed a game (Orange Box) and it wouldn't play because my computer was too old. I saved my money and bought a new computer. When I tried to install the game on my new computer, Steam would not allow it. I have answered all their questions: passwords, security questions and, just recently, e-mailed a digital copy of the quick reference card with the activation code. I even offered to send them the original Best Buy receipt.

GUESS WHAT?! I still can't play the game! All they say is the ownership is in dispute because it was downloaded on an entirely different type of computer. My question is, if I purchase Civ V and then have a problem with Steam, will I be able to play the game? 6 months ago, I would have been scratching my head wondering why all this fuss with Steam? The issue with Steam becomes very clear when it affects you. I am not a silly person who lost vital info, and I'm not a hacker, but I am mad as heck over this.

Why are you asserting you are not a hacker? no one said that. Assuming you are legit (because why wouldn't I?), an account that is in despute is clearly an account that had the username and password stolen or someone got ahold of you personal info and stole your idenity. That is not a problem with steam/valve.

Again with the spreading of missinformation. STOP IT. 2K Greg was right. All you need is your user name and password and you get infinite installs.
 
Why are you asserting you are not a hacker? no one said that. Assuming you are legit (because why wouldn't I?), an account that is in despute is clearly an account that had the username and password stolen or someone got ahold of you personal info and stole your idenity. That is not a problem with steam/valve.

Again with the spreading of missinformation. STOP IT. 2K Greg was right. All you need is your user name and password and you get infinite installs.
Unless your account somehow gets to be "in dispute"? Yet even here, if you have the password and username, and what we are being told is true, then you should still be able to download and install, but only one person (computer) would be allowed to log on and play at any one time.
Something here just does not add up properly.
If unlimited downloads are permitted, on many computers, given proper ID, but only one player at a time, how would steam even know if your ID had been stolen, or care?
The rather glib rely, blaming the user and exonerating steam of any responsibility is troubling. If a legitimate owner can not play his game, after providing the proofs that the game owner says he has provided, then whose responsibility is it? Are we to just accept that if you ever get a message that your account is "in dispute", that the owner should just throw in the towel as hopeless and abandon all the money spent on games with steam?
 
The rather glib rely, blaming the user and exonerating steam of any responsibility is troubling.

Probably because people have heard the sort of sob story about how an evil company kicked their dog while they were dying of cancer a million times. Anyone who hangs out on gaming sites hears stories about how Blizzard banned someone from WoW for no reason (when it later turns out they were gold selling) or from some shooter without cause (when they had every aimbot known to man on their system). This is just a variation on the theme.

Quite frankly I don't find the story to be plausible or credible. Maybe he's not being deliberately misleading, but there's got to be more to it. You log in with your steam username & password, you play your game on that computer. It really is that simple. The alternative is that we believe that Valve randomly deletes games from people's libraries because ... why exactly?
 
@nerd, steam doesn't care if you account is stolen, if you report your account stolen they won't give it back to you, just block it lol, if you want to keep your account in your hands, don't give out your password/username to anyone.
 
Now on the other hand there is quite clearly and obviously a means for valve to turn in game death/achievement/completion information into making a better product. Its relevant, pertinent and unambiguous. You put it into your favorite data analysis package and you get something useful. But note that the outcomes say nothing at all about any of the participants.

If they want to make a better product, they can take the suggestions and concerns mentioned in this forum seriously. I can't think of a better source of feedback.
 
According to 2K Greg: You don't even need the product key once you've registered it with your Steam account. All you need is your username and password.

Although it's advisable to hold on to your product key, as it is one method of providing proof of ownership of your account.


Excuse me, but I queried this issue earlier in this post. I installed a game (Orange Box) and it wouldn't play because my computer was too old. I saved my money and bought a new computer. When I tried to install the game on my new computer, Steam would not allow it. I have answered all their questions: passwords, security questions and, just recently, e-mailed a digital copy of the quick reference card with the activation code. I even offered to send them the original Best Buy receipt.

GUESS WHAT?! I still can't play the game! All they say is the ownership is in dispute because it was downloaded on an entirely different type of computer. My question is, if I purchase Civ V and then have a problem with Steam, will I be able to play the game? 6 months ago, I would have been scratching my head wondering why all this fuss with Steam? The issue with Steam becomes very clear when it affects you. I am not a silly person who lost vital info, and I'm not a hacker, but I am mad as heck over this.

I don't get it. If you'd attempted to installed it already, you must have registered it to a Steam account. You did use the same Steam account the second time round, right? Unless you'd moved to or from Thailand or Russia it shouldn't have been a problem.
 
I don't get it. If you'd attempted to installed it already, you must have registered it to a Steam account. You did use the same Steam account the second time round, right? Unless you'd moved to or from Thailand or Russia it shouldn't have been a problem.

I agree.

I helped few of my friends to recover their accounts (they were stolen via Keylogger) and after creating Support Ticket with all info that is needed to recover stolen accounts they all had accounts back in 3 days or less.
 
Hi Greg,

I dont know if your still knocking up that FAQ but can you tell me when steam will release the game to download eg will it be on the release date or the day before or a week before etc..

By the way i like steam never had any probs with it and ive been using it for years
 
No, its not my job to do so and I don't have the knowledge.

So you still think it's fine, that they aggregate information about you, even not knowing anything about it?

This I do know a little about as a biology graduate. When I tell people that they ask me what animals I work with and are disappointed when I tell them I see animals as numbers in a dataset on my computer screen. Its all statistics and surveying. You can't learn anything by looking briefly at individuals, they're too erratic and varied. You follow a single individual over an extended period and hope its behavioural eccentricities are reduced in relation to standard behaviour. This can't be applied to individual internet users because of manpower issues as the observer must necessarily be able to interpret context which computers are insufficient for. If an AdvertisingBot observes you telling a girl "You're so hot" then a basic one will show results with word matches and an impossibly sophisticated one that we aren't yet able to develop might get as far as ice packs, warm weather gear and fever relief medicine instead of the actual relevant product, contraceptives. Computers are stupid.

Only if you program them in that way.
This is a big research field.

And looking at your animals: You can identify them, because you have all their data, right ;)?
That this is probably not interesting is not the point here ;).

The alternative is you look at large groups to determine meaningful trends and to find the signal in amongst the noise. This necessarily involves cutting out so much that you're practically anonymised. Theres not enough resolution at this level to see individual little private things that would potentially bruise human egos.

With enough computer power you have the option for both.

Come on, this is basic Anti-Conspiracy Theory 101. There is insufficient manpower and funds for Them to directly observe you.

Not, if you are special.

Its going to take a Turing machine to change this.

:confused: er, what?
 
It's the end of June!!! Will Greg hold up to his word?!? Will we see this FAQ?!?! Will the forums erupt in revolt against Greg?!?! This and more, coming up next week on podcast 4, with Elizabeth Tobey.
 
So you still think it's fine, that they aggregate information about you, even not knowing anything about it?

They collect the same information any retailer does if you buy with a credit card, plus crash stats, playtime, and voluntary computer stats. This is hardly data I'm worried about releasing, especially when it'll be provided to others demographically.

(Steam users played this much TF2 this month, etc.)

If you want to avoid this kind of generic scrutiny, your only option is to pay and be paid with cash alone, for everything, forever.
 
They collect the same information any retailer does if you buy with a credit card, plus crash stats, playtime, and voluntary computer stats. This is hardly data I'm worried about releasing, especially when it'll be provided to others demographically.

(Steam users played this much TF2 this month, etc.)

If you want to avoid this kind of generic scrutiny, your only option is to pay and be paid with cash alone, for everything, forever.

How do you or anyone else know just what data Steam or anything else collects that has access to your computer?
 
tldr: Tough luck. Read it if you want to hear my opinion. :p

Lately I have seen Steam compared to other services that have a similar or more extreme level of "monitoring" the user. e.g. facebook accounts (and all the associated problems with apps etc.), debit/credit cards, gmail and so on.

The argument goes that anyone opposed to the fact that Steam collects certain data about you (even if not personally identifiable) must necessarily also be against the data collecting done by these other comparable services and so it is (wrongly) implied (as in there is no logical argument!) that such people must not use these other services. The argument is not logical because someone who opposes the data collecting from those other services doesn't necessarily have to discontinue using those services to oppose them. It merely shows they are not concerned about it enough to cancel the service.

Secondly, using a service like gmail as an example (for which I have two accounts of my own), I am prepared to accept there is some data mining/collecting going on (which has $ value to the entity collecting it, even if only a tiny tiny value) because I am being provided a service very cheaply or for free which I actually want. If I didn't like the terms and conditions of gmail accounts, I could have signed up for any number of its competitors like hotmail which to my knowledge would have very similar levels of data collecting. I don't yet know of any non-Google service which requires me to have a gmail account. (I apologise for slightly repeating this point in the next few sentences :()

Now, the reason I find the comparison of Steam to these other services problematic is quite simple. All of these other services provide a service to the user which the user usually actively sought out. Also, the conditions of the service usually only relate to that service and not to the use or purchase of other products. For example, I don't need a gmail account to sign up for civfanatics - that would be an arbitrary and probably annoying requirement for many potential forum members. I don't need a particular credit card to buy something from a store (though it's quite common for some cards not to be accepted). I don't need to have a facebook account to buy any video game I know of (except perhaps a facebook app :lol:).

As a side note, ebay got into a bit of hot water when they attempted to make all transactions necessarily carried out using paypal - a payment service owned by ebay. In effect they wanted to be able to double dip by taking auction fees and fees from the money transfer. This did not sit well with the ACCC and many of ebay's customers because it essentially fell under restrictive trade practices under Australian law (note, I'm no expert on this!, so don't take my word for it) - that is, restricting payment methods in the way they wanted to. In the end, it was settled that paypal would be a mandatory option to the purchaser - that was considered acceptable.

Now, civ5 is a game that we may purchase (if only the license, whatever) but to use it we need to agree to and use the Steam service - something provided by a separate business entity. That is rather unlike any of the other data collecting services I have seen Steam compared to.

One could argue that Steam or Steamworks provides positive-valued features to the end-user and so that is why we should accept the data collecting that Steam carries out. Personally the only feature I see so far as being valuable to the end-user in the Steamworks package is the MP functionality. I would understand many appreciating the friends-list type feature as well though this is only perceived as a good thing so far by people who already use steam and have "friends" on it. I see things like the achievements as pointless fluff that is really just distracting the gamer from where the real value is in a game. I would never suggest a game should use steamworks so it can have achievements, but the other features provided by steamworks I can see as reasonable to want in the game from both the developer/publisher and customers points of view.

I'm not really against Steam. I think it is a useful service and I can see myself using it in the future. I don't usually like the prices on there and I don't care whether it's the publisher who sets the prices or not - if there's a competitor offering a cheaper price for the same product I have no right to complain about the price.

However I don't like the way Firaxis/2K have got into bed with Valve by relying on Steamworks and hence relying on its DRM and almost certainly end up using Valve's purchasable-DLC service, as well as signing a deal to offer an exclusive deluxe edition tied to Steam purchases. Any attempt to spin this as something that civ fans wanted is downright insulting. (However, please correct me if I'm mistaken by linking me to somewhere where fans were calling for both of these things - steamworks and a steam-exclusive special edition - before 2K made the "steam announcement".)

Now, to address a couple of points I think need it...

Privacy is good, avoiding Steam because it lets Valve know how good/bad you are at a video game is silly.


How many of those things does Valve advertise?

Ignoring the fact that your suggestions are so low value and yet requiring quite a sophisticated degree of interpretation and understanding that you'd practically need an AI to understand them as no developed world citizen could do it cheaply enough, how does Valve which advertises no product not on Steam turn that into money?

Your data is safe because your data is worthless. Noone is interested in your personal habits.
(emphasis is mine)
I think you are either mistaken or being misleading by saying things like this. I appreciate you have high qualifications in a scientific discipline but you appear to grossly under-estimate the growing field that is data mining. I don't want to make it a dirty word like so many immediately apply but I won't pretend it's not a big thing in business. There might not be much value to a single user's data by to suggest it has zero value is dishonest. If that were true, then data of the same type but of 1 million users would also have zero value - something which is obviously absurd.

The_J went to the trouble of giving some very specific (and entertaining :)) examples of how seemingly boring data can lead to various "guesses" about the user. You seem adamant that this is near impossible to do or irrelevant on an individual-user basis. Why does it have to end there though? If you, for example, observe that younger children respond more to colour in tv commercials, then it would make sense to make fast food ads during kids tv shows use more colour. This sort of thing can easily apply to steam's advertising. Even if the ads on the steam client are completely uniform across every user now, they won't necessarily always be, especially if steam's account numbers continue to grow the way they have. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that either, IMO.
EDIT... Just to clarify, I wanted to say that even if you can't use the data to individualy target ads at users, you can still use the data to target ads at groups of people and achieve a similar objective.

I would argue that part of google's success over the past decade and a bit can be attributed to its employees not being constrained by a narrow view of the world like "X piece of data is worthless, end of story".



Now on the other hand there is quite clearly and obviously a means for valve to turn in game death/achievement/completion information into making a better product. Its relevant, pertinent and unambiguous. You put it into your favorite data analysis package and you get something useful. But note that the outcomes say nothing at all about any of the participants.

Its the same old story, follow the money. Criminals want your credit card, governments want a statement of your annual income, companies want to know why their product sucks, noone wants to know what game John Q. Nerd was playing last night. The very least they'd be interested in is what all the JQNs are playing this past month.

If there is no value to Steam/Valve collecting data about how long you've played games, then why do they even do it? Do you think it was a feature that was implemented because the end-users wanted it? As much as you might ask me, "What reason do you have to object to your game-time being recorded and shown? so your wife doesn't know?", I could equally ask you, "What reason do you have to want your game-time to be recorded and shown to you? Why would you actually care?"

While Steam provides lots of "stuff" to me for free, I also provide a bit of stuff to it for free. I can sympathise with someone who finds whatever stuff Steam gives them to be of little to no value and hence Valve taking free data way from them being a little unfair. Civ5 requiring steam is a tad unfair on those people and the only justification for it is the positive features that steamworks provides - again many of which features those people don't want or care about either.

Final rant: Firaxis and 2K hadn't even thought to include PBEM/hotseat/pitboss functionality at release. This was a big "WTH" moment when I read it. It sounds to me like they've only thought about MP at all very very late in the development process, around the same time as signing the contract with Valve.;)
 
Hardly. Point out where they sell PII, or even share it with third parties who aren't also bound by Valve's privacy policy, presumably being sub-contracted to do something.
The very link you provide has this info:
"Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve... Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve."

Oops!

You know this as you've linked to and referenced that page.

No. I said Valve's business was more about selling games than information/
How do you know this? Do you know how much valve makes selling/sharing our information?

Let's see your source(s). Otherwise we'll have to conclude you just made it up.

Second, you tried to downplay concerns regarding valve's info collecting saying in your reply to diligence "No ones interested in your Toku/Monty slash or your self insertion fanfics with Catherine. Valve can't sell that to anyone. Your dox are safe. Facebook... should not be compared with a service provider like Valve which has a clear source of revenue."

Ori countered by pointing out:
"Actually steam is, in addition to the business of selling games, also and exceedingly in the business of selling (mostly aggregate) information about computer game players and they mostly talk about the advantage of the data collection they are able to do and deliver to publishers currently."

You tried to counter that by saying:
"Ah, yes, aggregate information, that well known scourge of privacy. Would you care to offer an opinion on the relative importance of selling games vs. selling information about how a product was received to Valve?"

Now, pay attention... The relative importance of "...selling games vs. selling information about how a product was received to Valve?" is a distraction from the point that valve does collect undefined/unspecified aggregate, individual, and PII, and that we don't know who it's shared with or what purposes it's put to, and that is a concern to some of us.

Whatever the relative importance is is irrelevant to the discussion and is thus a Red Herring.

This ain't rocket science...

...how about informing me what false picture I am painting? I've never denied they collect it, they have to as they require payment from you. [PII]...
This is the fallacious argument Strawman. I said you're "trying to limit the topic to avoid relevant parts that hurt your case." -- not that you denied they collect PII.

Second, my previous posts make clear what false picture you're trying to paint.

Third, you're cherry picking again in that quote -- mentioning the obvious PII from purchasing. How about once mentioning that they collect unspecified PII and that they share it with unidentified third parties and associates and that the latter isn't bound by valve's privacy policy and that we don't know what uses our info is put to?

You know this because it's stated on pages you've linked to and referenced.

You might want to edit this out, calling someone a liar is an infractionable offense around here.
I said:
"...you're ignoring facts known by you (that valve's definition of what they collect is open ended) and cherry-picking (in this case the innocuous voluntary survey) to present a false picture. You're putting more effort into defending valve (often by presenting incomplete or downright false info)..."

I have given examples of you doing the above, and I stand behind it.

And saying you present "...downright false info..." is not calling you a liar, and your stooping to implying I did that is unfortunate.

Because you're campaigning to make the game worse by having Firaxis waste time recoding Steam's current functions.
Many, including I, think forcing steam on us and not having it be optional makes civ5 worse.

The differences between you and I include:
-I try to offer accurate and logical arguments
-I support your right to advocate for steam
 
Hashishim's post reminded me that Valve only have what personal information we give them...
First:
"...Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information...".

So valve doesn't just have info we 'give' them in voluntary surveys and the like, they can 'take' PII from us -- for example by recording our IP addresses and times we connect to personally Id us.

You may be confused by this statement:
"While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis..." -- by becoming a steam subscriber we're 'voluntarily' agreeing to their information collecting. It doesn't mean that they only collect information thru voluntary surveys or the like.

So your statement is wrong -- valve actively collects PII, and not merely what we 'give' them.

...which essentially amounts to an email address and username.
Valve's definition of PII:
"Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user."

We don't know what PII valve collects, so your statement is more cherry-picking.

Unless the anti-Steam crowd wish to claim that Steam is stealing information from your computer, theres nothing even at risk. No debate.
This is the fallacious argument Strawman -- attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position.

No responsible person is claiming steam is stealing information. What responsible people are saying is that valve collects unspecified aggregate, individual, and PII, they share it with unidentified third parties and associates and that the latter aren't bound by valve's privacy policy, and that we don't know what uses our info is put to.
 
Excellent post, PieceOfMind.
Can't disagree with any of your points.

They collect the same information any retailer does

How do you or anyone else know just what data Steam or anything else collects that has access to your computer?

Yes, source would be nice to confirm the statement by Zoolooman.
 
The very link you provide has this info:
"Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve... Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve."

Oops!

You know this as you've linked to and referenced that page.
Thats a great quote you've butchered.

Whats it saying? The full version says that if 3rd parties collect PII, (and the example they give is of a game previously not on Steam which collected PII subsequently coming to Steam) then Steam will give a warning that this collection is not covered by the Valve Privacy Policy.

So in fact it says nothing like what you want it to.

How do you know this? Do you know how much valve makes selling/sharing our information?

Let's see your source(s). Otherwise we'll have to conclude you just made it up.
Amazon sell media, Volkswagon make cars and Steam distributes games.

If you think theres any cause for doubt that this is the case, you should show your sources before we should even start thinking it might be otherwise.

Second, you tried to downplay concerns regarding valve's info collecting saying in your reply to diligence "No ones interested in your Toku/Monty slash or your self insertion fanfics with Catherine. Valve can't sell that to anyone. Your dox are safe. Facebook... should not be compared with a service provider like Valve which has a clear source of revenue."

Ori countered by pointing out:
"Actually steam is, in addition to the business of selling games, also and exceedingly in the business of selling (mostly aggregate) information about computer game players and they mostly talk about the advantage of the data collection they are able to do and deliver to publishers currently."

You tried to counter that by saying:
"Ah, yes, aggregate information, that well known scourge of privacy. Would you care to offer an opinion on the relative importance of selling games vs. selling information about how a product was received to Valve?"

Now, pay attention... The relative importance of "...selling games vs. selling information about how a product was received to Valve?" is a distraction from the point that valve does collect undefined/unspecified aggregate, individual, and PII, and that we don't know who it's shared with or what purposes it's put to, and that is a concern to some of us.
It shouldn't be. Because unless you voluntarily give Valve information or wish to imply that they are illegally stealing it from your computer, I don't see what information of harm is being transferred.

Whatever the relative importance is is irrelevant to the discussion and is thus a Red Herring.
No its not and only simple minds that think in absolutes think otherwise. Steam provides information on the games played to publishers. I won't deny this but you seem to think admitting it exists is somehow a victory. Its a minor part of the Steam business model. Its of minor concern.

Second, my previous posts make clear what false picture you're trying to paint.
No, I still don't get it. Tell me how I'm lying to you.

Third, you're cherry picking again in that quote -- mentioning the obvious PII from purchasing. How about once mentioning that they collect unspecified PII and that they share it with unidentified third parties and associates and that the latter isn't bound by valve's privacy policy and that we don't know what uses our info is put to?
You're the cherrypicker as I showed right up at the top.

I said:
"...you're ignoring facts known by you (that valve's definition of what they collect is open ended) and cherry-picking (in this case the innocuous voluntary survey) to present a false picture. You're putting more effort into defending valve (often by presenting incomplete or downright false info)..."

I have given examples of you doing the above, and I stand behind it.
And you've yet to show how they acquire information. If you don't give, they won't have. Until you've shown a mechanism for how Valve acquire and misuse information you don't give them and that this information is of real concern and not just what levels you completed in a single player game, its just empty fearmongering about a video game distribution system.
 
Commander Bello said:
They (Steam) by themselves advertise themselves to software companies as data collectors.

Their business may have started as game company, but they have turned into something very different by now.
No, they're still in the business of selling games...
Valve still sells games but Commander Bello is correct, and your disagreeing with him regarding that is yet another point you're wrong about.

Notes from Newell's keynote address to DICE 2009 from MTV Multiplayer: Video game companies acting as "entertainment companies": Newell said he is "obsessing" over gamers' expectations for "what kind of entertainment company they want us to be." They are fans of properties, not forms of entertainment, fans, to use his example, of Harry Potter, as opposed to just Potter books or just Potter movies. As a result, he said he is moving away from thinking of Valve as a video game company. One example is the introduction of "Team Fortress 2" video shorts made by Valve. The next will be that same team's "TF2" comics.

Newell is transitioning valve from a video game company to a company that provides "entertainment as a service".

Further, from Geek.com's coverage of that same keynote address:
"Perhaps Newell’s grandest vision of them all was the evolution of game companies into more general “entertainment companies.” He reckoned that most consumers were similar to Harry Potter fans, who are fans of the entire franchise and not just the books or just the movies. To that end, Newell intends to take Valve in the “entertainment” direction. The studio tested the waters with Team Fortress 2 animated shorts using the game’s characters. The house that made those shorts will be making TF2 comics in the near future, Newell announced."

I know you'll want to argue this, but take it up with Newell, as he's the one who disagrees with you.
 
First:
"...Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information...".

So valve doesn't just have info we 'give' them in voluntary surveys and the like, they can 'take' PII from us -- for example by recording our IP addresses and times we connect to personally Id us.

You may be confused by this statement:
"While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis..." -- by becoming a steam subscriber we're 'voluntarily' agreeing to their information collecting. It doesn't mean that they only collect information thru voluntary surveys or the like.

So your statement is wrong -- valve actively collects PII, and not merely what we 'give' them.
IPs, email addresses yes, but what else must a user give them? As far as I can tell, nothing. Or if they wish they can give false information.

Now, how about telling what other information Valve have as part of owning a steam account?

Valve's definition of PII:
"Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user."

We don't know what PII valve collects, so your statement is more cherry-picking.

This is the fallacious argument Strawman -- attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position.
Its not cherry picking. Valve can define PII however they like, they don't necessarily have it or collect it.

No responsible person is claiming steam is stealing information. What responsible people are saying is that valve collects unspecified aggregate, individual, and PII, they share it with unidentified third parties and associates and that the latter aren't bound by valve's privacy policy, and that we don't know what uses our info is put to.
Good use of responsible! Keeps the evretts out.

Moderator Action: Trolling - warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

You're going to have to show more clearly where Valve shares PII with third parties because if the quote you butchered all the way up there shows is the best you got, then at worst Valve allows third parties (i.e. publishers) to do data collection within their own games under their own privacy policies and will warn you where this occurs.
 
Back
Top Bottom