Civilization elimination thread

The Hwatcha bug most likely happened because they changed how seige worked in the expansion. Previously, a catapult just had some strength. Now they gave it a lower strength and a (+200%) bonus against cities. So yes, things did change and they just didn't notice that the promotion would transfer over to hwatchas I am guessing.
 
America 7
Arabia 25
Aztecs 21
Babylon 26
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 12
Japan 18
Korea 25
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 19
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 19
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 8

Decided to give the Iroquois some love this time around. Mohawks rushes are just grand and can be done relatively early on. Longhouse production is nothing to sneeze at.

Still find the Celts lame. Their UU is the only thing I find interesting.
 
The Hwatcha bug most likely happened because they changed how seige worked in the expansion. Previously, a catapult just had some strength. Now they gave it a lower strength and a (+200%) bonus against cities. So yes, things did change and they just didn't notice that the promotion would transfer over to hwatchas I am guessing.

Or they couldn't figure out how to program the +200% out from the upgrade and back in from a subsequent upgrade to cannon.
 
Come on guys, got to give a reason for both votes and not saying 'same as before'.

I've voted for different civs each time I voted, but if someone votes for a civ they voted for previously what's the issue with saying 'same as before?' It's not very likely that somebody's going to change their reasons for voting for a particular civ.
 
America 8
Arabia 25
Aztecs 21
Babylon 26
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 12
Japan 18
Korea 25
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 19
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 19
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 6

Like: America. Whenever I just want to play a game without worrying about anything really, I play America. It's great to have that added vision on military units, and cheaper land grabs. Plus my war sucks till modern era so it's nice to have those fortresses.

Dislike: Songhai. While the bonus from barbs is nice, I never pillage when I am taking a city. I like to have everything set up when I move in. I don't always pillage in games when I have enemies but don't take their cities. Even with strong knights I find them trumped with pikes and forest/hill tiles on long marches.
 
America 6 (-2)
Arabia 25
Aztecs 21
Babylon 26
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 12
Japan 18
Korea 25
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 19
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 19
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 7 (+1)

America - same as previously.
Songhai swims in money and human player knows how to use it.
 
America 6
Arabia 25
Aztecs 21
Babylon 27
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 12
Japan 18
Korea 23
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 19
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 19
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 7

I had a particularly enlightening game with Korea these two days. I had awesome success defending myself against a bunch of warmongers, but I also found how much of a setback Korea's UA is. So get this: you want tech, right? Assign Specialists to your buildings and you get it. However, assigning specialists means stopping the work on some tiles, which in term reduces your effectiveness, which in term reduces your city's food/hammer production, and that in term, lets you grow slowly and produce tech buildings slowly, which affects what? BEAKER PRODUCTION!!!

I assume there is a perfect scenario where you have so much food to grow that you won't mind assigning a few specialists to specific buildings, but that happens like once per 20 restarted games. So even though I liked managing to defend myself well and stay on par with the rest, I didn't like how Korea, which is 100% Science victory oriented civ needs much more time to get there than Babylon.

Being able to "set it and forget it" is a big boon as the game progresses, and planting an early GS is awesome for the tech growth. This way rather than assigning specialists to do your research for you, you can happily work your tiles and grow much more rapidly. Assigning specialists counts when the median tech in RA's gets to a higher value, so it is quite all right to grow up until Industrial Era and then think about assigning a few extra specialists (the 2 University specialists are a must though).
 
America 6 - 2 = 4
Arabia 25
Aztecs 21
Babylon 27
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 12
Japan 18
Korea 23
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 19 + 1 = 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 19
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 7

America UA is quite underwhelming between the early exploration phase and when artillery comes into play, and that's when a game is won. Great UUs though. Most of the civ remaining are good though.

A little love for the Dutch, who seems blatantly underappreciated in here. Any civ with a cool UI that make you read the map differently get my vote. And when it got a killer UA allowing you to rush buy everything early on and still grow, well I will fight for it!
 
America 4
Arabia 25 + 1 = 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 27
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 12 - 2 = 10
Japan 18
Korea 23
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 19
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 7

Upvote: Arabia. This was the first Civilization I played in vanilla Civ 5, via random. Don't remember much of that first game, it was mostly about game itself, not civilization in particular. Then I haven't played them for... well, a while. And right now I am playing Arabia on Huge Y(n)AEMP Earth Marathon game with all VC disabled, and having a blast. Bazaar just rocks, I can swim in money. Camel Archers are very solid units, although I don't like to have obsolete promotions (melee to ranged to melee), but still they are better than many. Also it is nice to have ridiculous amounts of oil. Won't be surprised if Arabia will win this thread, or at least make it top five.

Downvote: The Iroquois. Longhouse is good, but Mohawk Warrior is too situational, and UA is just weak.
 
America 4
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21 (+1)
Babylon 27
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 10
Japan 18
Korea 23
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 17 (-2)
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 7

The Aztecs have a very fun UA, and their UU pushes them to a different kind of game (with lots of warrirs early, something you'd rarely see otherwise).

The Persia...ugh, a nice UU and happiness producing UA make me want to war and go wide, but the UA makes me want the happiness of a smaller taller empire...meh.
 
America 4
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 28 (+1)
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 10
Japan 18
Korea 21 (-2)
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 17
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 7

:c5science: is not situational. :c5science: is important for every type of game. Having more :c5science: (especially in the early game) always has a huge impact and adds flexibility to play. As such, Babylon, the undisputed king of :c5science: needs to be voted up!

Korea is :c5science: light compared to Babylon. Why play the imitation when you can play the real deal? Korea's UU are also a very boring (discounting the broken nature of the Hwatcha being broken since it should eventually be fixed by a patch).
 
America 4
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 27
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 10
Japan 18
Korea 23
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 15
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22
Songhai 8

My up vote is going to Songhai for theme reasons: there simply aren't enough sub-Saharan civs in the game. I wouldn't say Songhai are the best, and based on what you all are saying I understand that it isn't a high-level competitive civ, but I certainly think it is much better and more interesting to play than some other civs that are still alive in this.

And, for the third straight day, I am up voting for theme reasons. So many of you dis some of these civs because they aren't high-level, but I just find the idea of taking my Polynesian settler and hopping into the water to settle an island off the coast, and make my own challenges like that with different civs. I do understand your logic, I just don't find it persuasive for my own enjoyment of the game. And Songhai is good for the UA and geographical considerations.

Third straight down for Persia.
 
America 5 (+1) the extra sight is really powerful
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 27
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 10
Japan 18
Korea 23
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 15
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 22 (-2) something that gives you an increase of gifted stuff but not a way to get there no thanks.
Songhai 8
 
Someone voted up America. I am surprised. I had given up voting for America since so many seem to hate on them without understanding how powerful they are. The only problem with America is that their UU come in the mid to late game. This is not necessarily a problem if you play your game to use your advantage at this point in the game. I think people get so used to war mongering in the Classical to Medieval eras, that they shy away from a civ which allows you to build defensively during the early stages and really open up in the Renaissance and later.

IMHO, there is nothing quite like having a swarm of Mechanized infantry which can ignore terrain movement penalties and attack multiple times each turn to literally blitz through a large swath of enemy territory. Add to this the +1 sight to ensure line-of-site for Artillery and you have a recipe to dominate unmatched by any civ in the game.

BTW, my votes seem to have been overlooked.

Babylon 28
Korea 21
 
Wow, this topic is going fast heheh. Sweden has been skipped.

Corrected version:

America 5
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 28
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 10
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 15
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 8
Sweden 15
 
America 5
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 28
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 10
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 15
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 6
Sweden 15

I dont rate Songhai that highly. The UA is a bit of an odd one, and basically enables you to play sloppily. Not sure I really get it. The money isnt that great either, as even on a good game, you still only disperse about 4/5 bar camps. Spain's reward for discovering natural wonders is far superior.

I dont get why Mongolia is so low. They are awesome at early wars with a heavy reliance on horses. Their UU's and UB also have good synergy. Their UA isnt that great, but there are worse civs on the list. I still cant get over how Austria got dropped so quick.
 
Dislike: Songhai. While the bonus from barbs is nice, I never pillage when I am taking a city. I like to have everything set up when I move in. I don't always pillage in games when I have enemies but don't take their cities. Even with strong knights I find them trumped with pikes and forest/hill tiles on long marches.

There might be come confusion about how the Songhai ability works.
 
Dislike: Songhai. While the bonus from barbs is nice, I never pillage when I am taking a city. I like to have everything set up when I move in. I don't always pillage in games when I have enemies but don't take their cities. Even with strong knights I find them trumped with pikes and forest/hill tiles on long marches.

What do you mean you never pillage when you take a city? The gold is automatically granted to you when you conquer a city, I believe Songhai's UA just triples that gold. Which is a pretty good ability I say. The ability isn't about getting triple gold from pillaged tiles, it's about the gold you receive when you conquer the city.
 
Or they couldn't figure out how to program the +200% out from the upgrade and back in from a subsequent upgrade to cannon.

They shouldn't need to, it should be possible to treat it as an all-new upgrade effect like that for any other unit, and there's no issue with upgrading a normal Hwach'a to a cannon. The game shouldn't need to remember that a particular Hwach'a used to be a catapult when it next upgrades. Still, since it wasn't fixed in the last patch there must be some complexity to it.

Dislike: Songhai. While the bonus from barbs is nice, I never pillage when I am taking a city. I like to have everything set up when I move in. I don't always pillage in games when I have enemies but don't take their cities. Even with strong knights I find them trumped with pikes and forest/hill tiles on long marches.

That's not the way the UA works, although it's badly-phrased. "Pillaging cities" = gold you gain automatically from capturing a city, not from pillaging improvements. A large city can easily net you 1,000+ gold as Songhai.

America - same as previously.
Songhai swims in money and human player knows how to use it.

It sounds from a lot of the comments here that many human players don't... I'm very surprised by this; it was here that I first heard talk of the Songhai being one of the game's best civs when I too had thought the UA looked somewhat weak on paper. Playing them I realised that it was true, despite a UU that could be better.

I had a particularly enlightening game with Korea these two days. I had awesome success defending myself against a bunch of warmongers, but I also found how much of a setback Korea's UA is. So get this: you want tech, right? Assign Specialists to your buildings and you get it. However, assigning specialists means stopping the work on some tiles, which in term reduces your effectiveness, which in term reduces your city's food/hammer production, and that in term, lets you grow slowly and produce tech buildings slowly, which affects what? BEAKER PRODUCTION!!!

And yet, you upvote ... Babylon? A civ that's entirely reliant on cramming universities full of specialists in order to maximise the 50% GS generation bonus? Don't get me wrong, Babylon's a strong science civ if less versatile than Korea, but it sounds as though you have yet to settle on effective playstyles for specialist production, which makes voting in favour of any specialist-dependent civ seem odd.

I assume there is a perfect scenario where you have so much food to grow that you won't mind assigning a few specialists to specific buildings, but that happens like once per 20 restarted games. So even though I liked managing to defend myself well and stay on par with the rest, I didn't like how Korea, which is 100% Science victory oriented civ needs much more time to get there than Babylon.

You need to specialise cities - a city which is focused around food production is great for specialists generally. Moreover there are plenty of cities where you'll want to add specific specialists, such as workshop specialists in production cities, because you don't have enough remaining tiles with good production yields, or because you want to specialise in the production of certain Great People. And at higher difficulty levels artist and scientist specialists are essential to keep up the tech race and to keep policies coming at a sufficient rate.

You seem to have the specialisation of the two civs pretty much completely backwards. Korea's benefit works with any specialist type, and just provides free beakers - you can very easily focus on a culture victory, or on production of military units (including Korea's two exceptional UUs) while gaining more science than your rivals in the process. You can heavily focus specialists in a single city to play tall, or spread out across multiple cities (albeit less optimally, due to the food limitation you mention) to play wide. Unless you use Babylon only for the early academy (in which case Babylon just has the mediocre UA "get +8 bpt once you have Writing"), Babylon needs to be pretty purely focused on science to get its benefit.

Finally, the fact that Korea's main benefit is to beaker production while Babylon's is to GS generation means that Korea will have more beakers per turn than Babylon by the time Great Scientists and RAs start popping - and that means Korea gets greater benefits from each of these than Babylon does from each of its Great Scientists. Bottom line: Korea will overtake Babylon in science production in the mid-game, and Babylon won't catch up.
 
America 5
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 26 (-2)
Byzantium 20
Carthage 23
Celts 5
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 11
England 17
Ethiopia 20
France 17
Greece 21
Inca 25
Iroquois 10
Japan 18
Korea 22 (+1)
Maya 27
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 20
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 15
Roman Empire 18
Russia 20
Siam 20
Songhai 6
Sweden 15

Babylon: Sure they are great for science, but that is it. They are essentially a one trick pony.

Korea: While they also provide a science bonus, it can be used with any victory, especially culture where you will gain more science while still spamming artists.
 
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