[vanilla] Civilization Guide: Persia (vanilla)

[MadDjinn]

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Civilization Guide: Persia - Civilization Guide: Persia

Persia

Darius I​

Introduction
Born in 559 BC after a successful rebellion against the Medes, the Achaemenian Persian Empire survived and thrived in a dangerous neighborhood for some...

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[jmick175]

What is a general amount that other civs that are "Friendly" will pay for Open Borders and Luxuries? Is there a general amount or is it completely random/based on individual game info?

 

[weregamer]

Note that all of this info is for offers you make to the AI. Quite often if you refuse an AI offer then contact them and make the identical offer they will refuse it.

Open Borders are worth about 50g if the AI trusts you; the price doesn't seem to go up so much as that they will simply refuse at any price if they don't. This doesn't seem to change with game speed.

For luxuries, on a normal-speed game at any difficulty an AI who likes you and needs a luxury will pay about 200g for it. This will go down if they dislike you or they don't need a luxury. Trading luxuries straight across if they need one will also work, but if they don't need one they won't. In recent patches AIs are a bit better about realizing that they may want that luxury soon even if they are OK this turn, and take the deal.

AIs do multiply the value of a luxury by the game speed factor, but the treaty duration is also increased. Whether this is actually "fair" is a complex question, and depends on what you are using gold for.

So on normal speed, an AI who likes you and needs a luxury will pay about 200g to get it for 30 turns. On Epic speed, the same AI will pay about 300g to get it for 45 turns. Of course, in those 45 turns the AI will still get to build and research only as much, relatively as it would have in 30 turns on normal, so this seems generous.

But the value of gold is changed in complex ways by the game speed:

Because construction costs are multiplied by the game speed, so are rush costs in gold. Thus gold spent on rushing is inflated in a longer game. If you sell a luxury to rush a building, the increased price is exactly fair.

Research Agreement costs are the same regardless of game speed (only a function of your era), but the duration, which in this case is the delay for payoff, is multiplied. So here too gold is devalued by slower game speeds, and if you sell a luxurty to get cash for a research agreement you are getting a fair deal.

City-State bribes I'm less sure about. The bribe amounts and amount of favor they buy seems unchanged. I doubt very much that the favor decay mechanics are *divided* by the game speed, which is what it would take to make CS bribery reflect the same inflation as other gold costs. In fact, my unverified impression is that the decay speed per turn is either unchanged or actually slowed down, making the value of a bribe unchanged by game speed. So the slower the game speed, the more of an advantage you are getting if you are selling a resource to bribe a CS.

This last conclusion also matches my overall impression from playing several games with otherwise-identical settings on Epic vs on Normal speed. It's much more practical to bribe a couple CSes and keep them bribed even as early as the Renaissance, even if you aren't Greece and don't take Patronage.

 

[jmick175]

So you typically sell them for a lump sum gold trade? Because I've been selling them on a per-turn trade and have only been able to get them to give me between 5 and 8 g/turn for each luxury (assuming they have the cash). This was on a Marathon match.

From what you're telling me, I would need to get 7 g/turn or more in order to make it more gold over the course of the trade than the lump sum. But the value of having it available immediately is obviously a huge bonus and will likely go with that from now on.

I haven't been able to get anybody to actually pay me for my open borders, though.



Thanks for the info.

 

[elprofesor]

The lump sum /per turn gold is still an issue for the AI, they don't seem to understand that lump sum is inherently better than the same sum gained over the course of 30 turns. When selling something to the AI, you will get MORE money if asking them a lump sum of gold than if you ask them to give it to you over the course of 30 turns, and it should obviously be the other way around. Sometimes, though, they don't have the money, so you have to ask for per turn gold...

 

[fmlizard2]

Nice article. "Forever Golden" is a favorite strategy of mine. One thing to be careful of with Persia...they have a bit of a catch 22 when playing the early game. Obviously, you want to build as many Immortals as reasonably possible in early game...their double heal promotion is very solid throughout the game.

However, as Persia, you also want to get to Civil Service, ASAP. A popular way to do this (extensively tested) is to try to use the Great Library to bulb Civil Service. This is very possible on all levels but Deity...Immortal level it will fail occasionally. Bulbing Civil Service on about turn 50 is super powerful, mainly because it puts you in Medieval Era way before your time. You can use CS allies for tons of early this way. You can also build Chichen Itza way early...always a great strategy for Persia.

The catch, though, is that you no longer can construct Immortals. Forever. I didn't think about this and learned the hard way after executing the Civil Service bulb. While I was still in a good place to win in spite of this, be careful about taking Civil Service too early. It is a bummer that such a key tech for Persia can counterfeit their other dominant early strategy.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

...Immortal level it will fail occasionally. Bulbing Civil Service on about turn 50 is super powerful, mainly because it puts you in Medieval Era way before your time.

Turn 50 completion of the GL on immortal seems very risky. Playing on large or huge maps (more AIs means more competition) I would estimate the mean AI completion turn of the GL on immortal at turn 43 (this is just a best guess). Your chances obviously go up the fewer AIs you have to compete with (and I guess the DLC wonders help, as well), but >= turn 50 GL strategies on immortal are unreliable.

 

[fmlizard2]

Turn 50 completion of the GL on immortal seems very risky. Playing on large or huge maps (more AIs means more competition) I would estimate the mean AI completion turn of the GL on immortal at turn 43 (this is just a best guess). Your chances obviously go up the fewer AIs you have to compete with (and I guess the DLC wonders help, as well), but >= turn 50 GL strategies on immortal are unreliable.

Yes, pretty much all of my testing is on standard sized maps (8 civs) and with the DLC wonders...which do help give the AI other early options. With those parameters it succeeds about 75% of the time. The similar, slightly shorter version that bulbs Theocracy (better for most civs, but not Persia) takes one less tech and can be landed in the early 40s, especially if you skip an early worker build. That one is more like 90%.

Fastest I ever did this was the other night, when I bulbed Civil Service on turn 37 as Spain. That was with Aristocracy, a lucky full Writing tech from a hut, and a couple culture ruins. No Natural Wonders, though. That's certainly not repeatable every time, but it was fun.

 

[MadDjinn]

@fmlizard -

the forever golden strategy seems to be the more common approach as the immortal rush needs a few ais close to your start. I've seen more 'edge' starts with Persia lately, rather than with neighbours.

But yeah, you have to pick one or the other and stick with it. I guess on lower diff levels you can do both, but on higher ones you won't be able to do it.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

Great strategy guide for Persia. I went with your Forever Golden method and it earned me a very comfortable and enjoyable Culture win on Emperor. My first single-player Emperor win, actually! The amount of money is staggering even though I only had three cities for most of the game (along rivers), and later 2 small puppets. The game handed me a very favorable start on my own continent (Continents map) with three city states, two which were Culture and the other Maritime. I didn't have to worry much at all about having a military until the Incans settled on my continent (that's where the puppets came from).

With the Golden Age bonus it was pretty easy to snag whatever World Wonders I really wanted, not to mention easily build whatever else. I wasn't top score but was in the top three for Science the entire game, which is pretty awesome when going Culture and only having a few cities. No doubt it would have been more difficult if I was on the main land and needing a military to keep warmonger AIs at bay, but I think it would have still turned out alright.

Incidentally, my first win on King was with Persia (Culture win also). Persia really is one of the top Civs.

 

[Jodien37]

I also finished an Emperor game with Persia last night, but I was nowhere near a Forever Golden strat. I missed Chichen Itza early on due to being ganged by barbs + Ottomans + Americans right from the start. So I pumped a few immortals just to stay alive and eventually puppetted 3 cities. Nevertheless, I went on a comfortable culture win in a never ending warfare game, although being way behind everyone in tech level.

 

[Bamboocha]

These strategies look great, but I wonder: is it possible to combine forever golden and the immortal counterrush? I'm not too sure because the immortal counterrush requires you to finish the honor tree while forever golden needs you to take representation (which is in the liberty tree) and all of piety.

Another great dillemma is: when should you take civil service? On one hand getting it ASAP is fruitful because it allows you to build the Chicen Itza, a vital world wonder for Persia, but on the other hand it makes their unique unit (the immortals) obsolete.

 

[MadDjinn]

These strategies look great, but I wonder: is it possible to combine forever golden and the immortal counterrush? I'm not too sure because the immortal counterrush requires you to finish the honor tree while forever golden needs you to take representation (which is in the liberty tree) and all of piety.

Another great dillemma is: when should you take civil service? On one hand getting it ASAP is fruitful because it allows you to build the Chicen Itza, a vital world wonder for Persia, but on the other hand it makes their unique unit (the immortals) obsolete.

On lower difficulty levels it's easier to build Immortals then switch to Civil Service. This is only due to the fact that the AI won't build Chichen Itza very fast.

On deity, you have to choose one or the other.

As per combining the two, you don't 'need' to finish Honour for the counter-rush. It's just nice to do for all of the free gold you'd get.

If you did have a chance to switch, by say counter-rushing then capturing Chichen Itza, going into Piety first, but not representation, followed by opening Liberty would be a good plan.

You can do it if you get enough extra culture going and try to ensure that you're finishing the policies within the 20 turn time frames. You could always get one Social Policy first, then add some GG golden ages and/or the Taj Mahal and finish with the other golden age policy.

If I'm just adding Immortals to my army, I'll try to get at least 4-6 of them for the core group. (I don't build massive armies on standard speed)

If I'm rushing, then 10-12 is far more likely before I switch to Pikes.

 

[ezbutton]

Great article on one of my fav civs simply because their UA is so awesome. I have a few questions about GAs though. Do GA's give extra production? Is it worthwhile to pop a GP for a GA even while unhappy? Also while in these deliberate GA's does unhappiness get counted against your GA gauge/cap (or w/e it is) during a GA?

Thanks in advance and sorry for the newbie questions lmao.

 

[MadDjinn]

Great article on one of my fav civs simply because their UA is so awesome. I have a few questions about GAs though. Do GA's give extra production? Is it worthwhile to pop a GP for a GA even while unhappy? Also while in these deliberate GA's does unhappiness get counted against your GA gauge/cap (or w/e it is) during a GA?

Thanks in advance and sorry for the newbie questions lmao.

if you want golden ages, then it's worth it to pop GP at any time, happy or unhappy.

GAs stop both happiness and unhappiness from modifying the GA 'happiness bucket'. So yes, you can use GP GAs to prevent temporary unhappiness from sucking out all of the happiness you stored already.

golden ages give +1 gold to all tiles that already have at least one gold (big reason to have lots of rivers around) as well as +20% production in all cities.

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

hey man dumb question here for ya...

if im going for the counter push (or even the forever golden strat), should i be making a settler for another city at all? or just focus on building units from the capital and then puppetting useful cities/resettling good spots

i tried a game and i settled another city early, didnt really have heaps of gold spare but i did smash a civ or two. should i be settling too or what? also should i build a barracks in the capital at any point?

thanks for the help, im kinda a newb

 

[MadDjinn]

hey man dumb question here for ya...

if im going for the counter push (or even the forever golden strat), should i be making a settler for another city at all? or just focus on building units from the capital and then puppetting useful cities/resettling good spots

i tried a game and i settled another city early, didnt really have heaps of gold spare but i did smash a civ or two. should i be settling too or what? also should i build a barracks in the capital at any point?

thanks for the help, im kinda a newb

you can still settle a city or two if you are going for the 'forever golden' strategy. It can sometimes be beneficial to you, as it will increase the amount of happiness needed to hit that first golden age. This will allow you to get a bit deeper into the tech tree before starting the natural golden age, meaning that you should be able to get to Printing Press during that time (for the Taj Mahal). plus you have to get a few social policies opened in time as well, so a small delay will help most times. Don't forget to hook up new luxuries.

the counter rush generally means no expansion as you're focused on kicking out units and crushing the enemy. If the AI has decent cities to take, there's no reason not to puppet them. I wouldn't raze/resettle or use courthouses there until after you build a few national wonders. They will still be cheap (one city) and so can be built fairly safely if you've made space around your capital.

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

another Q. for the forever golden... should i be taken representation/reform asap? or do i wait till im 20 turns away from printing press?

or, is natural golden age just one u get from GP?

 

[MadDjinn]

another Q. for the forever golden... should i be taken representation/reform asap? or do i wait till im 20 turns away from printing press?

or, is natural golden age just one u get from GP?

you need to wait until after you have the Chichen Itza before taking Representation and/or Reformation. As well, the natural Golden Age should be the first one. Once you start a GA, your happiness will no longer be added into the 'bucket', so if you don't wait for it, you'll effectively be wasting it/delaying it for a long time and won't have quite as long of a total GA time.

the natural Golden Age is the one where you store excess happiness up until the 'bucket' is full.

you can be ~50 turns out from Printing Press when the natural GA starts (20 natural + 20 Representation + 20 reformation), but it's generally better to wait until you're a bit closer as you'll get more benefits from the GA if you can also open Economics soon after. Managing your happiness to ensure getting the natural GA around that time is the key.

 

[ahawk]

Is it possible that using the UA for combat is more effective when the game pace is turned down to Epic or Marathon? Since unit-building takes longer on the slower paces, but unit-moving remains at the same pace (units still get 2mp regardless of pace, terrain takes same number of mp regardless of pace), it would mean that at slower paces the counter-rush will generally be more effective, getting to the enemy much quicker than normal from Persia's UA while the enemy takes even more time to build any defenders due to slower pacing.

Am I right? I normally don't play Persia a lot (my portrait probably gives away my favorite civ.)