Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by Linkman226, Mar 11, 2011.
What civilizations do you guys feel should be included in RFC?
You can see what people want in this poll.
(It's from the Rhye of Imperialism thread)
Right, but those are specific to the mod he's creating, which deals with imperialism.
I'm talking about civs in general, across history.
Many of the popular civs many people are passionate about (eg: Poland, separate civs for Germany and Austria, 2 separate civs in Scandinavia area) will only make crowded areas of the map even more crowded and deterministic.
Civs should represent entire civilizations, rather than individual nation states.
I think priority should be given to civs that would spawn in locations normally there would be no (historical) civs that should still exist in.
- Persia -> Safavid/Qajars/Iran (as dynamic names of current Persia civ. Will not spawn if Persia is still alive unless player selected to play as this civ in menu screen)
- Gran Colombia (fictitious, represents collection of South American minus Brazil states that fought off colonialism in South America)
- Portugal -> Empire of Brazil (dynamic name of Portugal if Portugal ever changes its capital away from Lisbon.
- Aztecs -> Mexico (Mexico will be dynamic rename of current Aztec civ. Will respawn as Mexico if Aztecs have been defeated)
- Jurchens/Jin Empire/Manchu Empire (if current China civ is defeated, modern Chinese dynamic civ names such as RoC and PRC and leaders such as Mao and Chiang will be available to Jurchens)
- Zulu (will be very weak so even if AI plays this civ, Zulu will easily get defeated/vassalized. If humans play Zulu, chances of surviving are still tough) -> South African Union (fictitious, represents collection of states in southern Africa that fought off colonialism in 1950's)
- Mali -> West African Union (fictitious, represents collection of states in western Africa that fought off colonialism in 1950's)
Minor (possibly unplayable) Civs
- Moroccans/Berbers/Almohads/etc.. (weak civ that is fated to slowly lose Moorish Spain to Spain and Portgual, and is very likely to be vassalized by Arabs)
I think Korea should be included, probably should have been included in Rhyes original version. Should be easy enough to implement I'd say using Jarkovs version as a template.
After that, a South American civ, either Argentina or Brazil would be good, possibly the Austrian Empire for Eastern Europe using the HRE.
Personally I'd like to see the Celts but I'm biased there
Possibly the Zulu to represent South Africa
For minor civs, I think Tibet would be good. Also some sort of minor in central Asia, in between Russia, Persia and Mongolia/China, although the choices aren't great. The Majapahit empire in Indonesia would be a good addition too I think.
So here are the civs that should be included in my opinion:
Iran (safavids,Qajars, Iran): We can all agree that Iran is top priority.
Berbers: (Zirids, Almoravids, Almohads, and the dozen Morrocan dyansities that followed): The Berbers should spawn with (settle): one city in Morrocco (whatever one is more historical; choices include Fez, Marrakesh, Rabat), Tunis, Al-Jazair and Seville in Spain (Seville because not only was it significant under the Muslims but also under Spain itself).
Central Asian Civ: (Ghaznavids, Seljuks, Khwarezmian, Timurid and Khanate of Bukhara): To represent a central Asian civilization is difficult task because most of the expanded into Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran. Three of these dynasties are before the Mongols and two afterwards. So heres my solution:
Ghaznavids spawn in 950 ad: Cities in Central Asia, Iran, Pakistan, afghanistan flip to them. In game thats four cities: Merv, Samarkand, Sihraz and Qandahar. Their name changes to Seljuks and then to khwarezmian empire. then in with the spawn of Mongols in 1250 Merv and Samarkand flip to the mongols and the empire collapses.
In 1400 the Timurid dynasty spawns and flips all the cities in central Asia, Iran, pakistan and Afghanistan. 100 years later the Safavids Iranian spawn and flip Persia and Afghanistan. The timurids are left with Central Asia and their name is changed to Khanate of Bukhara.
This might sound complicated but basically its a spawn, collapse and rebirth. These mechanics can be tweaked for the Human player.
Minor Poland city: Just one city in poland (krakow or Warsaw) to slow down german expansion in the region.
German/Austiran separation: The Austrian should be called the Holy Roman Empire then German spawns in 1500 (as kingdom of Prussia) and takes Berlin and Frankfurt. Also the Austirans should found Budapest more often. This serves two purposes 1) more war in Europe 2) Accurate Austrian Ottoman Wars.
Egypt: should spawn in 900 ad as the Fatimids. (name change to ayyubid and Malmuks). They can flip Cairo, Alexandria, Benghazi and Tripoli.
Whichever ones u guys want in the game, post them and i will give info on spawn dates, flips, unties and building
Rome --rebirth--> Italy
Persia --rebirth--> Iran
HRE/Austria. Of course, Germany would still be in the game, just spawning much later.
Carthage --rebirth--> The Almohads
Vikings --rebirth--> Sweden. This would require increasing the likelihood of a Viking collapse, however.
And significantly less important ones:
Mexico, Zulu, Celtia. Nice, but still kinda meh.
I think there should be a modern replacement for the Khmer as their area hasn't been united since colonialism. I cant really think of an obvious replacement but some one like Indonesia or Australia might be good.
Why does everybody want Korea so bad?? There are plenty of other civs that are more important and shound be implemented first (like Germany, Almoravids, Timuids, Egypt, Poland and India)
Im not saying civs like the Zulus and Korea shouldnt be added by they should definitely take a back seat to other more important ciivs. the Ethiopians and Kilwa sultanate would be a much better empire from Africa
I see Korea as more important to most of the civs you posted, the area is underrepresented as it is. Poland is hardly that important, and many of the civs you mentioned exist in 3000BC start, so it can't be too hard to add to the 600AD start.
Ok, poland isnt that important; we can represent it by an indie but Timurids, Fatimids and the Berbers had a major impact on world history and should be represented
Is it really feasible to to represent the Timurids though, they occupy a similar area to Persia? Although, I would like to see something minor for Central Asia
As stated above; representing Central Asian dynasties will be hard but the plan is to spawn a generic central Asian civ (includes Ghaznavids, Seljuks and Khawarazam Empires) in 900 ad . This empire will collapse in 1250 (around the time Mongols conquered th region). In 1350 ad the timurids will spawn in Samarkand and entire region will flip to them (including Central aSia, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan). Soon after in 1500 the Safavids will declare independence and the Timurids will be left with Central asia and their name would be changed to Khanate of Bukhara or the Uzbek Khanate.
I don't know, I think the area would be best represented by a minor, Mongolia and Persia, and it would discourage any human Mongol player from expanding west if they're going to be flipped away in 100 years no matter what. It seems alot of work and it pre-dertimes what will happen the region for a good period of the game
For the rebirth of civs, is it possible to determine and change the cities they flip depending on the time period, and to try and make it more likely for them to re-emerge at certain time periods? Eg. if Egypt collapsed sometime BC, if they re-emerged in 1000AD they'd flip some of the cities of the Fatimid Caliphate, or if they re-emerged in 1900AD they'd take the cities of modern Egypt.
Its not as complicated as i make it sound and both Iran and Mangolia are foeign powers in Central Asia. If we wanted that then we coldve just had arabs take the area. Anyways that what happened to the real mongol empire. Its also very similar to wat happens to the romans and the arabs so i think its fair. if a player wants to control half the world as mongols than there need to be some major obstacles that they have to get through.
I really wouldn't find a central Asian civilization would add that much to the game. Perhaps if Korea, the Byzantines, the Fatimids, the Safavids, the Almohads, Sweden, HRE/Austria, Germany, Italy and the Celts were all added (and their kinks worked out) and then the game still ran fairly fast, then they could be added. All the other ones I listed would add a lot more to the game. The Timurids can easily be represented by either a barbarian wave, a minor civ, or the Safavids alone. They don't really need their own major civ.
Timurids are given way too much credit nowadays imo. Their impact was enormous, but they didn't last for long themselves.
I don't find Korea to be that important either; in my opinion Timurids were better
p.s : Leoreth the central asian civ is supposed to represent all turkic central asian civs from Seljuks, Ghaznavids, Timurids, Uzbek khanate and others. Their names would be changed over time and their too (with the spawn of other civs)
I think then the term civilization is misapplied here. You really can't throw all those factions you mention into one pot, there are miles between the Ghaznavids and Seljuqs, for example. I can understand the wish to fill this portion of the map, but it doesn't really work out to find a civilization for that.
Its not perfect but its as close as it gets. Here my plan tell me wat u think (@ leoreth)
Seljuks spawn in 950-1000 ad range (they also represent khawarezmids)
1200 ad: A big barbairan uprising makes Seljuks collapse (most time); followed by Central Asia flipping to the Mongols. Or maybe mongol units spawn in the region and conquer it
1350: Seljuks respawn as Timurids (only difference: Leaderhead and name). Safavids spawn (1500 ad) and take over persia and Timurids are renamed as Khanate of Bukhara
The last part is is very similar to ur concept of HRE splitting in two
Separate names with a comma.