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Civilizations that should be in RFC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by Linkman226, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    I can only repeat what I always say: I don't like scripted deaths and respawns just to resemble the historic situation because it can quickly look out of place with what's going on around it on the map.

    Plus, it really hurts to see Khwarezm and Seljuqs suggested as one civ ...
     
  2. J. pride

    J. pride Chieftain

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    Alright I see ur point so heres a revised version.

    Seljuks spawn in 1000 ad

    1150 ad: a barbarian uprising takes place near the Aral Sea ( supposed to represent Khwarezm Uprising). If the seljuks collapse the cities turn into independents but the Ai should have a 50% chance of surviving so that the game stays interesting.

    1200 ish ad: Mongols spawn with units in Central Asia and declare war on the Indies or Seljuks (if they survive) in the region.

    1350 ad: if the seljuks are dead then a conditional Timurid respawn occurs.

    1500 ad: The safavids form and the Timurids become the khanate of Bukhara.

    This is probably the best solution considering that historical accuracy has to be balanced with playability. This way everybody has a chance to survive or die

    The ming dynasty does not equal the Tang dynasty. Ummayad Arabs dont equal the Abbasids. But seeing that it makes sense i have represented the Khwarezm as barbarian uprising.
     
  3. IrishDragon

    IrishDragon Legend

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    There doesn't seem much point in creating a civ that will probably only last 150 years, and then creating 2 more civs in an area, while unrepresented, wasn't that important. It's alot of work that could be better spent elsewhere, imo.
     
  4. spaceman98

    spaceman98 Plotting something

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    I think the Seljuks should be added. I believe that the Seljuks had a more noticable impact on history than the Koreans. Also adding Korea would make the Mongols unhistorically weak.

    Also Egypt should respawn as the Fatimids.
     
  5. J. pride

    J. pride Chieftain

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    Finally, somebody agrees with me!

    Seljuks are a great representation of a Central Asian civ and historically were alot more important than many other civs
     
  6. DylanAraki

    DylanAraki Chieftain

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    Okay I say

    1. Brazil
    2. Argentina
    3. Canada
    4. Australia
    5. Cuba?
    6. New Zealand?

    Aztec re spawn into Mexico (All ready kind of does though.)
    Rome to Italy
    Persia to Iran
    Holy Rome to Hungary or Austria
    Zulu to South Africa
    Vikings to Sweden or Norway/Denmark
    Inca to Peru
    Khmer to Siam


    The reasons I have all the American ones are because I hate seeing the US control all of North America, or having South America being split up between European countries. Also the other stuff is to just make it more modern.
     
  7. srpt

    srpt Deist

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    my thoughts on the turkish/central asian spawn and middle east

    I think the medieval middle eastern situation can be better fit into the framework and scale of the mod if you generalize it a bit more. what we are trying to represent is the flow of the turkish element from central asia, through the middle east and eventually into SE europe. the gaznavids, seljuks, timurids, kwarezmids, white sheep turks, black sheep turks and others on until the ottomans were all part of a general tukish-persian-islamic culture that dominated the region from the seljuk conquest onward, with a brief interruption in the mongol period. the careers of spectacular dynasties within that tradition, such as timur's, are a bit hard to represent at this scale. there was a rolling phenomenon of slave/mercenary armies revolting and replacing the government, also hard to represent. so how about this:

    spawn a turkish civ in central asia at an earlier date and give the AI all the settler and war maps to head for mesopotamia and then constantinople, or collapse, in which case give them the original turkish spawn in anatolia at the later date. all the player UHVs would dictate replicating the central asian and ottoman versions of the empire one at a time, or both at the same time, or whatever. this spawn would usually result in a persian AI collapse. you could even use the mongolian spawn to pressure the collapse of the turks by flipping part of central asia, thereby triggering the ottoman spawn.

    also I think you could:

    respawn egypt as the fatimids if no one is holding the area

    respawn carthage/phoenicia as a north african/spanish arab/berber civ

    respawn iran in 1500 or later if no one holds the area

    if you did those few things, adding no extra civs and a few basic conditions, you would have a more interesting and dynamic middle east through the medieval and later periods, without really breaking the scale of the mod with excessive detail. I would also add a mughal respawn for india if they are unstable, which could pull the civ north towards afghanistan, leaving south india open to europeans.

    on a related note

    I don't understand why people don't include byzantium just by having the romans move their capital. isn't that what happened? I know they spoke greek and had a different tradition of christianity but they were in their own words and in fact the continuation of the political power structure of the roman empire. just make a trigger for rome to move its capital if they lose x western cities.
     
  8. Linkman226

    Linkman226 #anarchy

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    Concerning Byzantium, I thought it would be better to make it a Grecan rebirth. And if Greece respawns a third time (post-Nationalism), it would be called Greece- because Byzantium in the 1800s is ahistorical.
     
  9. J. pride

    J. pride Chieftain

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    It wud require u to more work and it might not work out.
     
  10. Dumanios

    Dumanios MLG

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    Byzantium as a playable civ
    Judea(Accompanying a larger Middle East)
    Korea
    HRE
    Zululand
    Celtia as a playable civ
    Breakaway Civs

    Breakaway civs are in between Minor and Major in that they have a UU and UB, but not a UHV. You can control them, but you have to win the old fashion way. You have to switch in-game because there is no guarantee that they will spawn, these civs depend largely on where you settle.
     
  11. J. pride

    J. pride Chieftain

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    Judea, that sounds ridiculous(no offense) there are tons of more important civs


    But I like ur idea for breakaways
     
  12. BenZL43

    BenZL43 Physician - still can't spell this correctly.

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    Remember what Firaxis had just released for Civ5 ?
    Yeah. Polynesian Civs. We really need that one, representing the settler of archipelagos in Pasific Ocean.

    I'm agreed to split HRE into Austrian and Prussian, which will became German

    Minor Polish Civs ?

    Playable Celtic that spawn with at least 1 settler in Mainland Europe, and after a spesific date, if still uninhabited, AIs only will get a Settler in Ireland

    Majapahit Empire, which spawn in 1293AD to balance the Khmer, with UP is ability to built a city in Jungle

    Hittite (Barbarian) to balance Babylonia so it do not goes too large until Armenia and Arabs

    Ashanti ?
    Zululand ?
    Iroquois ?
    Native American tribes ?
    Berbers ?
    Timurids ?
    Korean ?
     
  13. hoplitejoe

    hoplitejoe Top fun-poster

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    i don't think "to fill up a bit of them map" is a very good reason to add a civ. they are so unimportant you may as well add the Ukrainians as a civ :mischief:
     
  14. BenZL43

    BenZL43 Physician - still can't spell this correctly.

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    lol
    I have to find another good reason then :p
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    Err, you might not know this, but ...
     
  16. azander12

    azander12 Chieftain

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    Why not just make the Central Asian civ a strong independent, with maybe the Mongols conditionally re-spawning in the modern era to represent modern Central Asia, as the Turkestan Federation (or something like that)?
     
  17. Iapetus303

    Iapetus303 Chieftain

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    I hope no-one minds me resurrecting this thread, but beefing up the various Central Asia / Steppe Nomad empires is something I've wanted to see for a long time, but have lacked the skill/knowledge (and time) to do it myself, so I'll share some of my own thoughts on what could be done.

    First off, I think that regardless of how it’s done, something definitely does need to be done to power up the various steppe peoples. While they haven't produced many great civilizations, they have certainly been influential on (and often extremely dangerous to) their settled neighbours in Europe, China, Greater Iran, and even India.

    In the East, they are reasonably well represented: the Xiongnu/Hsiung-nu (the "Mongolian" nomads who spawn in the Classical era and harry China) are a significant threat that require a substantial investment by the Chinese to keep them out, and if you're careless can easily take a city and deny you your UHV. (Although they don't appear early enough to stop me sending my starting warrior marching across Eurasia to pick up all the goody huts from Mongolia to Spain, which just should not be possible).

    But in the West, apart from the Migration-Era barb spawns, they are seriously under-represented. The Ancient/Classical-era steppe peoples such as the Scythians and Sarmatians get only a few barbarians who can't do much to stop you settling there if you really want to (in a recent Greek game, I founded Kazan and Stalingrad).

    Historically, the early Rus states fought long campaigns against third steppe neighbours, and only beat them in time to get WTFPWNd by the Mongols. And even after they threw off the Mongol Yoke, they suffered continued harassment by various successor Khanates (Golden Horde, Crimean Tartars, etc). But in the game, they just get harried by a few horse archers who can easily be fought off, and of course the Mongols are quite frankly a joke.


    So what to do?

    I've had several ideas, of varying complexity.

    The simplest way would just be to add more barbarians and independents, both units and a few cities. I would suggest an independent, Jewish city spawning in the North Caucuses (and possibly a few other cities in the surrounding area) around 550-650 to represent the Kazars, at least one barbarian city just outside the Russian flip area spawning at the same time as the Russians or earlier, possibly a barbarian city in Mongolia before the main Xiongnu spawn to make early Chinese exploration a bit harder, and a few other barb/independent cities in Siberia and Central Asia so that the Russians actually have to fight their way to their UHV.

    My second, more involved idea, would be to do the above, but rather than (just) using barbs and independents, create a "Steppe Nomad" minor civ (with behaviour similar to the Natives). Possibly two Nomad civs, one aggressive one like the Natives and one peaceful one like the Independents (to represent the Kazars and other more peaceable steppe peoples). To add a bit of uncertainty, the two should have the same civ colour and flag.

    The third, most involved idea, would be to change the Mongols to represent various nomad empires from across history. I would suggest starting in Mongolia around 200BC, to represent the Xiongnu, and with UHV conditions and settler maps designed to represent the conquests of the Huns, the Mongols, and the Timurids. For example:
    * Control Central Europe [or raze x Roman-area cities] by 453 AD (the death of Attila)
    * Vassalize Russian and China (or conquer their core areas) by 1294 (death of Kublai Khan)
    * Control the Persian and Indian core areas by 1405 (death of Timur)

    Alternatively, the last UHV could be "still be alive in 1760" (a year after the last steppe empire, the Zunghar Khanate, was destroyed by the Chinese).

    Possible leaderheads:
    1) Starting leader: Attila the Hun (very aggressive and raze-happy, but can be bought off with regular tribute).
    2) c. 1200: Genghis Khan (aggressive and raze-happy, but willing to accept vassals).
    3) c. 1360: Timur. (Very aggressive, raze-happy, and a religious fanatic).

    (And yes, I know the theory linking the Huns with the Xiongnu has fallen out of favour, but I don't see the need to add a fourth leader to account for that. Not when Saladin, a Kurd, gets to rule the Arabs for their entire history).

    Possible power: "The power of the Steppes: mounted units can be built without access to horses* and don't cost maintainance**".
    * To represent the fact that eveyone will take their herds with them.
    ** To stop them being bankrupted if they end up with lots of units and few or none cities.


    This would still require a few independent or barbarian cities in Central Asia and Eastern Europe to hold up both European and "Mongolian" expansion.


    In addition to all this, the Turkish spawn could be moved to 11th Century (or maybe earlier) Turkestan, to represent the Seljukes.
     
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    On your UHV ideas: where's the challenge in controlling Russia and China when you've already steamrolled all of Europe as the Huns? Also, "be alive in X AD" is a rather redundant goal because you obviously have to be alive to win the game.

    Other than that, without advertising myself too much, have you taken a look at my mod yet? It hasn't fully achieved the accuracy for the steppe peoples you strive for, but at least it features Mongols that are a whole lot more active and regularly conquer China, parts of Russia and the Middle East.
     
  19. ComradeKc

    ComradeKc Chieftain

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    Canada and mexico
     
  20. great.taurus

    great.taurus Chieftain

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    Split Russia into:

    Kievan Rus -> Ukraine
    Muscovy ->Russia
     

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