civIV Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire (RFRE)

[gringoesteban]

I noticed that forest tiles have the CivIV default value of +50% defense, and hills grant the default value +25% defense. This seems too high for ancient warfare. The way RFRE is now, a unit on a forested hill gets +75% defense, yet a unit in a fort only gets +25% and a unit in a Lime gets +50%.

For example, Caesar's forces in Alesia surrounded a large Gaulic army, and then they themselves were besieged by the Gaulic relief force. Yet the Romans prevailed against the enemy, largely because they had built a fortified ring facing both inward and outward. This implies a fort's defensive value should be stronger than a hill or forest.

Another example is the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest where Varus lost three entire legions. Those legions were attacked in the forest by Germans under Arminius yet despite the "defensive value" of being in a forest, they got annihilated.

Logically, a forest would penalize ranged units (archers, skirmishers, siege weapons) of both the attacker and the defender, because they would not have a clear shot at the enemy. But regarding sword and spear units, I don't see how a forest would have given much of an advantage to one side or the other (but for RFRE purposes some civ unique units like say the Dacian Falxman or Germanic units should get forest bonuses both for flavor and also to represent their knowledge of the woods).

With that in mind, here is my proposal.
Forest Terrain Tile +10% defense bonus (instead of +50%)
Hill Terrain Tile +15% defense bonus (instead of +25%)
Ranged Units -10% forest penalty (both attack and defense)
Various Barbarian Units +10%? forest bonus (both attack and defense)

That way, a unit on a forested hill would have +25% defense which equals the value of a prepared fort. With different units having different strengths and weaknesses, and the terrain yielding less bonus overall, then the Player would have to use better tactics when fighting battles.

 

[gringoesteban]

Roman ranged units should have slightly a lower withdrawl probability. I rarely lose heavy units in battle because I soften up the enemy with collateral damage from ranged units. I recommend that the default withdraw probability for Velites, Funditors, and Ballistae units be lowered by 5%. Onagers seem overpowered and should be given a 10% lower retreat chance than they have in p8 (i.e. If I remember right, the p8 default Onager retreat value is 80%, so what I am saying is that the number be lowered by ten points, to 70%). While on the subject of Onagers, they are quite powerful, so I suggest that Onager gold per turn cost be raised to like at least +6 extra than the normal basic unit cost.

Later era Legions -- specifically Imperial Legions, Mercenary Legions, and Cometensus -- should cost more gold per turn (“gpt&#8221. For example, currently an Imperial Legion costs 19 gpt whereas a Miles Aux unit costs 13 gpt. The gap is not much, only six gold. The Player would be better off building say 20 Imperial Legions instead of 29 Miles Aux. The gpt cost is essentially the same, yet the Imperial Legion army would be way better. From a historical perspective, an Imperial Legion was a stronger, larger, and better trained, and better equipped group of soldiers than were auxiliary units. From a RFRE gameplay perspective, an Imperial Legion is way more poweful than a Miles Aux. For these reasons, later era legions should cost a lot more than they do in p8. Here is my suggestion for what these units should cost:

Imperial Legion: (normal base unit cost) (+) (13 gpt extra)The gpt cost of an Imperial Legion would now be double that of a Miles Aux.

Mercenary Legion: (normal base unit cost) (+) (6 gpt extra)The Player could choose between having say 20 Merc Legions or 29 Miles Aux, which is a difficult decision. Merc Legions are slightly better from a gameplay perspective, and historically they were composed of mercenary barbarians, so this justifies the smaller gpt cost than an imperial legion.

Comitensus: (normal base unit cost) (+) (11 gpt extra)
If a Cometensus is cheaper than an Imperial Legion, then maybe the Player would replace obsolete Imperial Legions with Comitensus and disband the Imperial Legions to build some Veterani city improvements.

The gpt costs seem okay up to and including Marius Legions so I don’t think any of the early legion stats need to be changed.

 

[Jakob Safa]

>Terrain
To the changes I would add:
-20% hill and forest strength for phalanx units (Macedonian phalanx, Ptolemite phalanx, all hoplites...) as they only have the advantage as long as their line is not broken
-10% hill attack for cavalry as they need to charge to be effective and it is hard to charge up the hill

 

[gringoesteban]

<-- needs to be 12 + 13 turns = 25 turns[/B]
124 - 190AD = philosopher + commodus
190 - 214AD = Severan
214 - 238 = Crisis
238 - 262 = Soldier
262 - 286 = Diocletian
286 - 296 = Goths
296 - 308 = Franks
308 - 320 = Constantine
320 - 344 = Conversion

The p8 games are off of this, but how much???

As a point of reference, in p8 I discovered Alliance with the Franks in 211 AD and Christian Faith in 259 AD. I did not keep notes for when I discovered the other techs so I'm not sure at what point the timer got way out of whack....

 

[Ajidica]

Sorry I havent been able to test p8 yet, and unfortunatly I'll be gone this week.
The tech that says 'Deus Vult-God wills it', should be changed to 'Gods Will'. In latin, 'it' is lo or the other one I'm forgetting. So if you want it to say God will its, the Latin should read Deus lo Vult. (I know it looks strange, but latin, like spanish, is set up wierd.)

 

[Ultimate Genera]

With that in mind, here is my proposal.
Forest Terrain Tile +10% defense bonus (instead of +50%)
Hill Terrain Tile +15% defense bonus (instead of +25%)
Ranged Units -10% forest penalty (both attack and defense)
Various Barbarian Units +10%? forest bonus (both attack and defense)

I agree. As it is now, there is no reason to build even a limes fort on a forested hill (25%+50%) and building a normal fort there actually lowers the defense bonus (25%+25%).

 

[gringoesteban]

PStew, I am unemployed with lots of time on my hands so I can volunteer to update the unit xml files (assets\xml\units\CIV4UnitInfos and the text descriptions assets\xml\text\rfre_units) if you can give me some general guidelines of what changes you would like to see (attack & defensive bonus and penalties for ranged units, gold per turn cost for Legions, Barbarian bonuses, etc).

 

[primordial stew]

@gringoesteban
I've come to view such things as opportunities. Not opportunities that were being sought, but present circumstance anyway so try to make the best of it.


I've got some edits already, so lets not start just anywhere.

One thing that is certainly lacking is the game hint shown at the beginning. Like "don't fight a land war in Asia", "Oil based navies..". This needs to be replaced with something appropriate. Some ideas:

Timber is needed to build Fine Quinquerems
Hannibal is difficult to stop.
Legions don't belong in the desert.


> collateral

Do ballistas cause too much collateral damage? The withdrawal rate should be really high. These were ranged units that wouldn't be in the melee unless the battle went terribly wrong. Velites are similar. They'd throw their javelins, fire their arrows, etc.. and then fall back into or behind the legions. So with some experience should survive regularly.

There are 3 settings for collateral damage:

			<iCollateralDamage>180</iCollateralDamage>
			<iCollateralDamageLimit>40</iCollateralDamageLimit>
			<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>5</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>

180 I think means 1.8X iCombat (2 in this case)
40 means max damage cannot exceed 40%
5 means 5 other units (not the one attacked) will be damaged.

40 is too high. Would 20 or 15 be an appropriate number?

How about ballista is 150/15/4 and onager is 100/20/4?


> terrain

Yes, 50% for forests is high. I think 30% is better. Forests do provide concealment, usually channeling of the attacker, flank protection, and less vulnerability to missile weapons.

Probably (regular) forts shouldn't clear forest. Limes forts don't, so 50% for the fort + up to 20% for forest and 25% for hills and 25% for river. Limitanei 6 combat + 120% is a challenge even for the 14 strength invaders. Most tiles won't be so defensible though.

In the Tuetenborg forest who would get the defensive bonus? Would it be the Romans moving through the territory, or the Germanics laying in ambush?

Also note that there are 2 types of forest already. Many of the forests in Germania provide significant bonuses only the Germanic tribes. These cannot be chopped down, so will always provide a benefit to the invaders.

 

[gringoesteban]

> collateral

Do ballistas cause too much collateral damage? The withdrawal rate should be really high. These were ranged units that wouldn't be in the melee unless the battle went terribly wrong. Velites are similar. They'd throw their javelins, fire their arrows, etc.. and then fall back into or behind the legions. So with some experience should survive regularly.

There are 3 settings for collateral damage:

			<iCollateralDamage>180</iCollateralDamage>
			<iCollateralDamageLimit>40</iCollateralDamageLimit>
			<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>5</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>

180 I think means 1.8X iCombat (2 in this case)
40 means max damage cannot exceed 40%
5 means 5 other units (not the one attacked) will be damaged.

40 is too high. Would 20 or 15 be an appropriate number?

How about ballista is 150/15/4 and onager is 100/20/4?.

I agree that lowering the amount of collateral damage and the number of units damaged is a better solution than what I originally proposed (i.e. lowering the withdraw rate). As far as the exact numbers to use, I did not look at the XML to see what the p8 settings were, but as long as Velites, Funditors, Ballistae, and Onagers do less percent damage and also injure fewer enemy units than they did in p8, then we will be on the right track.

> terrain

Yes, 50% for forests is high. I think 30% is better.

Probably (regular) forts shouldn't clear forest.

25% for river

I think 30% for forests is still a little high, but it is better than 50%, so we are moving in the right direction.

If a Limes does not clear a forest then a fort should not, either, so I agree.

I was not aware that the river crossing penalty was only 25%. In my opinion, it should be much higher, maybe even as high as 50%, which if I remember right was the value used in Pink's CIV3 RFRE. Granted, not all rivers are as wide as the Rhine and Danube, but these natural barriers gave a huge defensive benefit to Rome after Hadrian decided to stop expanding the Empire and instead entrench behind those rivers.

 

[Jakob Safa]

>Rivers

How about making to types of rivers. Normal rivers that give 25% bonus and large rivers (like Rhine and Danube) that gave 50% bonus.

I have some free time now so I can help to if you want PStew.

Maybe I could edit the formations info. We were talking about this long time ago but noting was done till now.

 

[primordial stew]

> Normal rivers that give 25% bonus and large rivers (like Rhine and Danube) that gave 50% bonus.

If you can come up with it, we can use it I don't know what all is involved, or even if it's feasible. Consider a plot:

Spoiler :

BeginPlot
x=0,y=30
RiverNSDirection=2
isNOfRiver
RiverWEDirection=3
isWOfRiver
FeatureType=FEATURE_FOREST, FeatureVariety=0
TerrainType=TERRAIN_PLAINS
PlotType=1
EndPlot

Looks ugly. Maybe another terrain or feature type can be added and only used in select river plots? The problem there is that it would apply from all directions.. This is the solution used in civIII RFRE. Note that it was only used in Dacia IIRC. The Rhine, while wide and deep, never seemed to act as a military boundary. More like a line in the sand (cultural border) than some insurmountable defensive barrier.


Does anyone play on vista or win7? Do many of the python event work? I'm seeing all sort of faults that didn't happen on XP. Generally things work, but deleting units, setting culture, and creating/deleting buildings are failing


Added a SS showing the intended Spatacus revolt. 3 slaves joined the uprising too. Another for the Helvetii migration.

 

[Jakob Safa]

>Rivers

I can try it.

Another way is to gave a unit that comes near a river a special promotion with python. But what would the promotion do? In CIV4PromotionInfos you can only specify if the units ignore rivers or not or is it possible to add a new tag to CIV4PromotionInfos?

>Vista

I use Vista, but can you be more specific about what don't work so I can look at it.

 

[Ultimate Genera]

I also play with Vista, but I don't know exactly what should happen. Spartacus and Helvetii were like in thumbnails.

I played now until 454AD, when the game crashed. It seems to crash always I click the "Moenia Theodosii" to build it in Constantinople.

I know the end game is not ready yet, but for the development some notifications.

1. During the Gallic empire revolt, capturing of Carthago Nova didn't affect the counter.

2. When the Palmyran empire revolted, main part of my units there were moved to Byzantium, but some were left near the cities in Asia. Palmyran cities had 0 culture (or were revolting, point is that area around them was free), so I captured Palmyra and ended the revolt in one turn with those units left there. Not quite realistic?

3. When the Goths automatically came to vassals, all my other vassals (Armenia, Numidia, Scythia) declared war against me.

4. I couldn't negotiate with the Scythians at all after the war began, happily the Armenians wiped them out...

5. The vassalage of the Franks never ended. They got the city Gallia Belgica, but my troops there weren't moved away, as happened with Sarmizegetusa.

6. Sassanids and Arminius AI's are working well, although Arminius is bit timid. When I captured Palmyra and got the eastern areas back, Sassanids immediately declared war when my main army still was in Byzantium. And Arminius declared war soon after the Western Empire seceded. He could be much bolder though, e.g. he should have attaced during the Gallic empire war.

7. Goths were just nothing, I destroyed their unprotected transports (their warships left behind destroying my fishing boats!) with my q-summas in Byzantium, and later when the vassalage ended, I declared war and took Sarmizegetusa back and also Aquincum and made them my vassals again. They shouldn't surrender that easily...

8. Western Empire AI was absolutely awful. When the division happened, my main army was in Narona and became theirs. It was about 15-20 imperial legions, 5 onagers and some auxillaries. Also against the german border were some troops. Still I conquered with minor troops I gathered from Donau border and Krim in 15 turns all of Italy, Illyria and Germania Superior. WE had garrisoned their legions all over the empire and I had easy job bringing in onagers and taking city by city with almost no losses. After that they agreed to give me all the island in Mediterranean and become vassals. Also for some reason the population collapsed in Western Empire soon after the division, the big, typically 9-14 pop cities in Hispania, Gallia and Italia shrinked to 3-7 pop smalltowns.

9. Christianity never spreads to cities with romanism. Also no holy city was created, maybe because for some reason the Armenic cities all became christian in 224, but christianity was founded only turn after when the timer tech something-225AD was invented.

10. Apparently the Lombardii aren't added yet.

11. I can build Mead hall in some cities, I guess I shouldn't be able to do that?

If there is anything I can do to help with this mod, just tell me. I can't python, but I'm familiar with XML and Roman Empire.

 

[primordial stew]

>Rivers

I can try it.

Another way is to gave a unit that comes near a river a special promotion with python. But what would the promotion do? In CIV4PromotionInfos you can only specify if the units ignore rivers or not or is it possible to add a new tag to CIV4PromotionInfos?

>Vista

I use Vista, but can you be more specific about what don't work so I can look at it.

When the Social War started, did only 1 city revolt or was it 5?

That game was really weird. Some amount of XML change can be done over the course of a game, but this time some things broke down. This might have just been the early manifestation of that. Will find out next time.

Another oddity is the barracks stopped working around Augustus


> Imperial Legion: (normal base unit cost) (+) (13 gpt extra)The gpt cost of an Imperial Legion would now be double that of a Miles Aux.

Unit cost... there seem to be 3 types of units: workers, units, and military units. I really only understand 2 types: military + unit, yet a whole stack of slaves can be deleted with no change to upkeep Lets just ignore that for now and concentrate on the 2 types which are differentiated in XML by bMilitarySupport. Garrisons (having 0 movement) are not set as military, but the rest of the army should be. Garrisons keep the peace on the cheap, but little else.

Consider:
* In the 200AD scenario Rome controls 117 cities
* Legion flavors + siege equipment need extra gpt
* post-Augustus the composition of the army was around 2 auxiliary soldiers to 1 legionaire
* pre-Augustus the composition was closer to 1:1 (miles socii, velites, allied hoplites, funditors, cohors equatia miliaria, miles celticus) is it really?
* a military unit is also a unit
* the civics XML tags of interest are:
iBaseFreeUnits
iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits
iGoldPerMilitaryUnit
CommerceModifiers
* the map is "large" so civ automatically scales up certain XML values such as the iBase ones above

Now load up the 200AD map and delete a ballista. Unit expenditure goes down by 10 or 11 gpt. 2gpt for a unit + 4 gpt for a military unit + 4gpt of extra cost. I've been changing the numbers so this doesn't match p8. Here is what I have right now (iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits always = 20):

Repbulic: iBaseFreeUnits = 45 iGoldPerMilitaryUnit = 3 CommerceModifiers = -40
Triumvir: iBaseFreeUnits = 60 iGoldPerMilitaryUnit = 4 CommerceModifiers = -40
Principa: iBaseFreeUnits = 140 iGoldPerMilitaryUnit = 4 CommerceModifiers = -55
Abs Pcp: iBaseFreeUnits = 140 iGoldPerMilitaryUnit = 6 CommerceModifiers = -55

The govt civics will be set in python, and have a massive anarchy penalty, so you should be stuck with the appropriate govt.

To go along with this the extraCosts are:
miles socii = 1
legion I = 3
legion II = 2
legionIII = 5 (marius)
legionIV = 5 (imperial)
legionVI = 0 (mercenary)
legionVII = 4 (comitates)
limitanei = 0
praetorian = 8
ballista = 4
onager = 6
Vexillatio = 5
eques legion = 5

Under the Principate govt, an imperial legion will cost 2+4+5 gpt while a miles aux will cost 2+4 gpt. Legions need to be costlier and more effective, whereas the miles aux by this time is mainly for holding ground.

 

[primordial stew]

> If there is anything I can do to help with this mod, just tell me. I can't python, but I'm familiar with XML and Roman Empire.

Clearly bug finding is necessary! p9 is bug fixes and balance. Lots of both!

There are some fairly independent tasks that can be done. One big one is creating more scenarios. The map doesn't change much (recently lead was added, some cities adjusted), so is suitable enough for cloning. Right now there is 275BC and 202AD. A 100BC and 400 something map would be nice. Scenarios are extremely important for tuning and testing the game.

Creating a scenario is some work. There is some python support that is needed, but I can do that pretty quickly. For editing you might think "just use World Builder", but that has certain problems. I actually do 100% of the edits in vim (text editor). Syntax errors in WBS can be really painful to find (a debug dll probably helps here), but with a large undo stack and saving working backups regularly it can be done.

Fundamental to creation is understanding what all was going on at the time, and how that translates into game terms. Who is at war, where are the boundaries, what size should the army be (composition, promotions, location), etc.... All based on whatever historical info is available! Once the cities and armies are set then work can begin on setting buildings to put the economy where is needs to be. Also be sure to include whatever wonders would have been built already, etc... There are lots of details to attend to in order to create a quality snapshot of history.

The 200AD scenario is blessed with the availability of good info about the Roman army's composition and disposition. From this data the economy and opposing armies could be derived.

 

[primordial stew]

> I played now until 454AD, when the game crashed. It seems to crash always I click the "Moenia Theodosii" to build it in Constantinople.

The comma causes a CTD. If there is a leading , there needs to be additional art specified.
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/rfre/TheodosianWalls.dds</Button

The Sphinx had this too, but since the Sphinx is already built that one would never have triggered.


> 1. During the Gallic empire revolt, capturing of Carthago Nova didn't affect the counter.

It should have, but maybe the display wasn't updated right away? The CrisisGaulCityCounter is modified whenever the Romans and Gauls trade cities.

> 2. When the Palmyran empire revolted, main part of my units there were moved to Byzantium, but some were left near the cities in Asia. Palmyran cities had 0 culture (or were revolting, point is that area around them was free), so I captured Palmyra and ended the revolt in one turn with those units left there. Not quite realistic?

Any Roman units within 2 plots of a revolting city gets 50% damage. I'll change it to 8 plots. Still, with the range available from the via publicae are it might not be enough.

The culture expansion doesn't happen till the next turn.


> 3. When the Goths automatically came to vassals, all my other vassals (Armenia, Numidia, Scythia) declared war against me.

Umm.... dunno. The code is all the same.

> 4. I couldn't negotiate with the Scythians at all after the war began, happily the Armenians wiped them out...

> 5. The vassalage of the Franks never ended. They got the city Gallia Belgica, but my troops there weren't moved away, as happened with Sarmizegetusa.

That's how it works. If you have RoP with a civ that your city culture flips to your units won't be moved.

Carthage and even the tiny Judea split off from me. Maybe they are happy about getting Gallia Belgica?


> 6. Sassanids and Arminius AI's are working well, although Arminius is bit timid. When I captured Palmyra and got the eastern areas back, Sassanids immediately declared war when my main army still was in Byzantium. And Arminius declared war soon after the Western Empire seceded. He could be much bolder though, e.g. he should have attaced during the Gallic empire war.

Most likely random chance, unless something went wrong. In my most recent playtest their economy collapsed and they were in STRIKE mode for a while. Maybe too many unhappy people? They will have HURRY_POPULATION now. That should help.

> 7. Goths were just nothing, I destroyed their unprotected transports (their warships left behind destroying my fishing boats!) with my q-summas in Byzantium, and later when the vassalage ended, I declared war and took Sarmizegetusa back and also Aquincum and made them my vassals again. They shouldn't surrender that easily...

Yeah, that's what happen if the AI don't see a path to the objective, they just sit there. They have free ships to hopefully open the passage, but no guarantees.

More robust code is needed to be able to pick a new objective if the primary objective is blocked. It is a general problem with setting specific objectives.


> 8. Western Empire AI was absolutely awful. When the division happened, my main army was in Narona and became theirs. It was about 15-20 imperial legions, 5 onagers and some auxillaries. Also against the german border were some troops. Still I conquered with minor troops I gathered from Donau border and Krim in 15 turns all of Italy, Illyria and Germania Superior. WE had garrisoned their legions all over the empire and I had easy job bringing in onagers and taking city by city with almost no losses. After that they agreed to give me all the island in Mediterranean and become vassals. Also for some reason the population collapsed in Western Empire soon after the division, the big, typically 9-14 pop cities in Hispania, Gallia and Italia shrinked to 3-7 pop smalltowns.

Yes, a main problem is the legions being able to do work. The AI will keep it's workers busy no matter what, so only the auxiliaries will be available to defend the empire. Also the AI does not consider extra unit cost, so it will quickly end up in financial trouble. Anyway, the WRE is miserably run historically, so maybe this is ok.

I never considered ERE attacking the WRE

> 9. Christianity never spreads to cities with romanism. Also no holy city was created, maybe because for some reason the Armenic cities all became christian in 224, but christianity was founded only turn after when the timer tech something-225AD was invented.

Armenia was the 1st nation to adopt Christianity as their state religion. So they are give Christianity in all their cities and convert to it.

Amphitheaters are set to spread Christianity as does the persecution, so once it is founded I was expecting this to happen. Maybe spread works by transmitting from 1 city that has the religion to one that doesn't? I added something to set some seed cities during Nero's time. Hopefully it will spread naturally from there.


> 10. Apparently the Lombardii aren't added yet.

The civ exists, but the python code doesn't create them yet


> 11. I can build Mead hall in some cities, I guess I shouldn't be able to do that?

You barbarian

Both Triumphus and Mead Hall are BUILDINGCLASS_BARRACKS, but Triumphus goes obsolete so then Mead Hall is available.. Added: ObsoleteTech>TECH_ETRUSCAN_HERITAGE

 

[Ultimate Genera]

I never considered ERE attacking the WRE

Well, I had to. Just before the division I managed to get my income bigger than expenses (my bank account allowed me to endure the 3rd century crisis with -300 gpt on average) but the division changed +150 back to -300. I had so much troops against the Sassanid border, and the lack of some resources made my cities unhealthier. And, of course, I want my great empire back!

In reality the WRE was in much worse condition than ERE when the division happened, but in the game it is possible to handle it comletely otherwise (playing the 275BC scenario). WRE has one relatively short (and easy to fortify) border against the germans, and multitude of productive, rich cities in Africa, Hispania and Gallia, if the Gallic empire has been crushed rapidly.

ERE has also rich, big cities, but it has two borders, which both need much troops. Sassanids are quite powerful, and the border is hard to fortify. At least the city of Babylon is right on the border, so every time they attacked I had to pull troops back to Ninive and abandon some cities, until I got to counter-offencive. Also the European border is hard, the barbarian city near Tomis makes the border all but straight, and there are barbarians coming continuously against Odessa.

If I could choose, I would definitely take the WRE, unless there will be something simulating the chaos there. As it is now, it would be easy pickings for WRE to take the most productive part of ERE, Greece, as ERE's main army is in Syria and Krim.

Armenia was the 1st nation to adopt Christianity as their state religion. So they are give Christianity in all their cities and convert to it.

Amphitheaters are set to spread Christianity as does the persecution, so once it is founded I was expecting this to happen. Maybe spread works by transmitting from 1 city that has the religion to one that doesn't? I added something to set some seed cities during Nero's time. Hopefully it will spread naturally from there.

I think the problem is somehow linked with romanism being present in all Roman cities. Christianity spreads to sassanid/scythian/numidian cities, and after conversion to constantine or whatever causes romanism to disappear, christianity starts spreading in my cities too. But this happens only after the immolatio christianorum's are obsolete, so christianity should spread also earlier, when romanism still exists, at least to some extent.

Also one thing is that although romanism disappears, it comes back as it spreads automatically in every city I conquer. So when I ended the game I had ERE-area with about 1/2 cities christianity and captured WRE-area with romanism.

Maybe they are happy about getting Gallia Belgica?

Is there no way I could end the vassalage? Gallia Belgica was my main port for Britannic supplies, and I wanted to declare war them and get the city back...

 

[primordial stew]

> ERE has also rich, big cities, but it has two borders, which both need much troops. Sassanids are quite powerful, and the border is hard to fortify. At least the city of Babylon is right on the border, so every time they attacked I had to pull troops back to Ninive and abandon some cities, until I got to counter-offencive. Also the European border is hard, the barbarian city near Tomis makes the border all but straight, and there are barbarians coming continuously against Odessa.

Sounds about right!


> If I could choose, I would definitely take the WRE, unless there will be something simulating the chaos there. As it is now, it would be easy pickings for WRE to take the most productive part of ERE, Greece, as ERE's main army is in Syria and Krim.

At this point there should be more barbarians about in that territory.

I will take a stab at the Vandals, and look over the Goths too.

The Huns should have been created on turn 438 (401AD or so..). Did they make it to your borders?


> I think the problem is somehow linked with romanism being present in all Roman cities. Christianity spreads to sassanid/scythian/numidian cities, and after conversion to constantine or whatever causes romanism to disappear, christianity starts spreading in my cities too. But this happens only after the immolatio christianorum's are obsolete, so christianity should spread also earlier, when romanism still exists, at least to some extent.

Christianity will be founded with the 50-100AD tech in p9. There is also some code to "seed" Christianity and make Roma the Holy City. At this point it should spread through trade routes. The "un-do trade route double" is -40% instead of -50%, which I hope won't obliterate the routes. Something about when the building modifier is applied and rounding.

> Also one thing is that although romanism disappears, it comes back as it spreads automatically in every city I conquer. So when I ended the game I had ERE-area with about 1/2 cities christianity and captured WRE-area with romanism.

Whatever a civ's state religion is it will spread with conquest. With Roman/Greek/Druid/Egyptian temples becoming obsolete with Conversion, it makes sense to actually convert. There is no way to obsolete the religion itself.


> Is there no way I could end the vassalage? Gallia Belgica was my main port for Britannic supplies, and I wanted to declare war them and get the city back...

With them being vassals, and a long as you already have ships this will work fine.

 

[Ultimate Genera]

>Huns
There was some lonely rider who told they didn't want any war...

 

[Jakob Safa]

I didn't play the 275BC map further then the second Punic war, because it didn't work and I didn't want to mess with wordbuilder or python so I wouldn't broke any other events. It worked fine up to it.

I did play the 200AD map to around 312AD when I crushed the revolts.

Plymerian revolt was were weak, because I puled all my troops from the border in to cities that don't revolt. The Parthians attacked my and conquerer most of areas that should revolt. When the revolt finally occurred I crushed it and then defeated entire Parthian army in Tire. The AI was keeping its entire cavalry in Tire when they gained -25% bonus and so lost the war because of that.

When the Goths arrived I sunk their boats with their entire army on board, so only there quinquereme Summas remained (where did they get them anyway, shouldn't they have more boats).