Civs Discussion

[ianinsane]

Yes, but you could make the land extremely poor (which for sub saharan africa is already true) so that their growth and power is limited.

No, sub saharan africa (outside the sahel) is one of the most fertile regions in the world and extremely high in resources. It is underdeveloped but does not have poor land.

 

[terrybozz]

Hi, i am wondering when will this mod be out and will it work with the 3.13 patch. ????????

 

[Joe Harker]

^^^ It's only started just a while back, so it will be awhile, it will most likely work with only the 3.17 (the new patch) although the actual makers of the mod can correct me if i am wrong.

 

[RegentBob]

What would happen if the European Union gets its own civ with 1 to 3 centralized cities in Europe (i.e. Brussels, Luxembourg, Vienna maybe). Then add the major civ's that belong to the EU (Germany, France, UK, etc.) and make them Vassals to the EU.

Cultural and attitude bonuses might help to hold the Union together after the start of the game.

I believe this would simulate the actual working of the EU in that:
the Open Borders would allow for trade routes;
the separate militaries would be on the same side, but without unified command (apologies to NATO);
the individual civ's could split from the Union (i.e. Ireland).

I don't know how the game rules and AI would react, but I think it would be interesting to test it out.

 

[ijnavy]

Wouldn't the vassals of the EU declare independence?

The EU is just an organization, not a civilization. They cannot be a civ.
Possible European civs: Spain, France, UK, Germany, Italy, Poland, Serbia, and Greece. Choose 4 so there are 30 civs.
Russia has already been added.

North Korea should be dropped because they would have only 2 cities and could only use nuclear weapons if they get rights in UN election (no one will vote for them), or the whole world will declare war on it.

 

[RegentBob]

Wouldn't the vassals of the EU declare independence?

They might not if there were attitude bonuses on both sides, a strong EU headstart in culture, and if none of the Vassals were strong enough to stand alone.

The EU is not a civ, but to make this work it would have to be treated as one. Therefore, Brussels (Belgium) and maybe one or two other cities would represent the core of the European Union. When you are trying to eliminate all but ~30 civ's in 2008, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Austria are not likely to make your top 30.

Then give each Vassal a strong attitude bonus toward the EU. Stretch it's economy a little thin. The individual civ's of the EU are not powerhouses by themselves--they are strong together. Also, if the AI is looking for mutual defense from a friend, maybe it will stick around longer.

Next, make sure the EU cities are completely developed and economically strong. Give the EU some attitude bonuses toward it's Vassals, and a sizeable headstart in culture. In time, cities may begin to culture-flip to the EU.

Finally, I do not understand how they AI works well enough to know if placement of Corporation HQ's and resources could also be used to hold the arrangement together.

Overall, it would be a way of simulating the EU as it works currently: a block of civ's combined to ensure mutual trade routes and mutual defense, and hopefully technology trading. Even the EU's military force can be explained in the European Security and Defence Policy.

Ideally at some point, through superior culture scores, the EU would absorb most of the cities leaving only the member civs' capitols. The alternatives would be a sort of civil war with the EU and it's Vassals retaking a member civ by force, or perhaps a member civ becoming strong enough to take over control from the EU. Besides those outcomes, there's always the obvious possibility that the EU could be picked apart by Russia, China, the USA, or some other civ.

 

[ijnavy]

Great idea RegentBob.

I just don't understand why we need an EU. Why can't we just do what we did with all the other continents by making the strongest civs and the others independent or barbarian?

 

[RegentBob]

Because I have a character flaw that causes me to try to make things more complicated and difficult than they need to be. I'm sure the 2008 Mod will be great regardless, it was just an idea that I needed to get out of my system.

 

[RedRalph]

Great idea RegentBob.

I just don't understand why we need an EU. Why can't we just do what we did with all the other continents by making the strongest civs and the others independent or barbarian?

I think that idea is a lot better in theory, but were going to be looking at a very slow game if we implement that

 

[ijnavy]

I don't think that it will be too slow.
1205 AD on GEM (a historical scenario on a GEM map with 39 civs) works fine. If we limit ourselves to 30 civs on rhye's map it should be playable, even if it's in the modern age.

 

[ijnavy]

So, what is the final decision on Europe?
For all the unplayable countries, they will be either independent or barbarian.

 

[Mr Historical]

I don't think we've done the "combined commonwealth structure" thing since the disasters of World War 1.

Korean war anyone?

 

[ijnavy]

Still, if there is a U.K. civ, they should still only control England, Wales, Scotland, and some small islands. Although the Queen of England is the Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Belize, Antigua and Barbuda, and Saint Kitts and Nevis; the UK does not control these countries, they are completely separate countries.

 

[Lord Civius]

I like the idea of an EU Civ. Though I would limit it to the western euro countries and not include the UK, Spain, France and Germany have to be their own nations. The rest of the EU nations can be cities in the EU Civ.

I like how the middle East is broken down. Iran (Shiite Muslims), Saudi Arabia (Sunni Muslims) and Israel. Iraq and Afganistan could be included as American Cities (in revolt) strictly from a military base standpoint. The culture of Iran trying to swallow them up before the revolt is under control. Don't know if this is workable but could add some realism.

 

[ijnavy]

That would leave the EU with only Italy, Scandinavia, and parts of Eastern Europe. The countries that you listed is its core territory. The EU is not a civilization, it's an organization.

I'm against making Iraq and Afghanistan US bases. If we must, how about we put independents near Mosul, Baghdad, and Kabul and make it so in some games the US gets lucky and they can defend the cities. In some games, the US gets unlucky and the independents win the battle.

 

[Lord Civius]

Yeah I didn't think the US base proposal would fly . An independent Iraq between Iran and Saudi Arabia should suffice. Israel should be small like they are but with Nukes to even the odds.

That would leave the EU with only Italy, Scandinavia, and parts of Eastern Europe. The countries that you listed is its core territory. The EU is not a civilization, it's an organization.

Then lets do away with the EU and NATO. It is not a civ as you say.

 

[ianinsane]

The EU might be not a civ but of all international organisations it is the one that comes closest to a state. There is a EU government with executive rights, a the European Court of Justice as the highest court in the EU, a EU parliament with legislative rights, the agreement that EU law breaks national law, a single currency, the process of establishing a EU army, common embassies in foreign countries, the ongoing process of consorting national laws in all branches, no state borders, a common border police. In short, the EU has reached a level of national integration that makes it come very close to a national state/federal state/civ. Thus, here we could save on civs.

I vote in favour of letting control the US Iraq and Afghanistan. What else is it doing now? Of course the cities must be revolting and there must be strong groups of Barbarians, but it must be still under US control.

 

[ijnavy]

If you want to cut down on civs, take away North Korea since it just dismantled its nuclear project. That would would make the total number of civs without counting Europe- 26 (Russia is already there). You can make 4 European civs, no need to save on civs.

 

[ianinsane]

Wait, wait...you believe that just because Kim Yong-il blew up a little cooling tower for the media that he turned into a flower child? No way. He might just have appeased the international public for the moment...but this story about Korea is far from over. It is going on for 60 years now and the two opposite blocs that started it are on the go to become the opposite superpowers of the near future: USA and China. So this will still keep us busy for a long time. After all they still have the bomb.

And we definately must include Palestine. We must not leave out the main hotspots in the world, even if they are small!!

So, in doubt, I still stick with the first list. (But without the NATO civ)

 

[ijnavy]

Yes, I do believe that North Korea will dismantle all of its nuclear weapons. That was the main and largest cooling tower.

Then lets keep the list on the first page, except
Revisions first list:
Change Sudan to Ethiopia?
Add another African civ, Congo?
Change Philippines to Turkey.
Maybe change Myanmar to another Indochinese civ.
Maybe add New Zealand
Lets have the EU


30 civs altogether