Civs lacking flavor

[Pocus]

First I would like to say again how I appreciate this mod and the work put into it.

Now my remark. Some, (many in fact) civs have a strong flavor and are a lot of fun to play with, if only because they have very big specifics.

But some others... I find them totally bland. For example Malakim. There are pretty standard. Sure Varn has the adaptive trait, Lightbringer have sentry I and such, but really, there is nothing to talk about these 'features'... (and don't tell me they see invisible, yes this is powerful but how often the AI use invisible units, and in which manner this trait alter your gaming style??). Compared to how Calabrim, Balseraph or Amurite plays, I find them (and some others) a bit dull.

As an example of change fot the Malakim, perhaps desert tiles could be considered as plain for production purpose in their border? This would be rather amusing, and you could even scorch your territory knowing you don't suffer from that and even benefit (faster move and defensive bonus!).


So, am I missing something? Perhaps some Civ are like that to allow new players to not be lost and act are 'Jack of all trades', or perhaps this is by lack of time from Kael and team, and this will change for Shadow? If someone have educated guesses or remarks, they are welcome.

 

[wilboman]

The Malakim and a bunch of other civs are speced to be specialised in "Shadow", which we'll be starting on now that BtS is out.

 

[EugeneStyles]

Just a thought - perhaps Malakim should have their own Economy Civic (like Bannor has Crusade), called "Nomadic" - +1 food, +1 production from deserts. Or something like that.

 

[wilboman]

Perhaps we'll give them Solar Panels as a UB

 

[Maniac]

Well, Archimedes made them.

 

[Shadius]

One thing that's always bugged me about the Malakim is the fact that their leader is a big Lugus-nut, but there's no religion that even remotely involves Lugus.

Just a thought; but it might be an interesting idea to give them their own "Cult" (See: corporation) to represent this. But I suppose we'll just have to see what you guys have planned for Shadow.

 

[MacGyverInSpace]

Perhaps we'll give them Solar Panels as a UB

Solar Heat Hut
Replaces Forge
+15%
+10% with copper
+10% with mithril

A large scale solar oven with walls coated with copper and /or mithril and a glass roof.

Note the missing unhealth. Also, doesn't factor in to global warming....which in this case is an unintended negative effect.

 

[CyberChrist]

So, am I missing something?

Yes, you are forgetting their unique building - the Citadel of Light.

However, I would agree that they should get an inherit production bonus on (featureless) desert tiles. Imho +1 food/hammer/commerce would be a nice way to make Malakim favor desert lands more.

 

[Grey Fox]

And the AI sure does uses Shadows in the late game, at least in my games.

Annoying little buggers.

 

[seZereth]

Yes, you are forgetting their unique building - the Citadel of Light.

However, I would agree that they should get an inherit production bonus on (featureless) desert tiles. Imho +1 food/hammer/commerce would be a nice way to make Malakim favor desert lands more.

what about they can build an improvement on desert tiles, which increases their yield... so it would not be too easy to use deserts? and with a nice graphic it could add some more flavor

 

[Grey Fox]

They would need to be auto destroyed if anyone else owns that tile tho...

 

[GeeJo]

I don't know - Elven farms, cottages, and plantations (and previously Dwarven mines) remain in place after changing ownership, as do the Orcish barrows (though those'll probably not last long unless the conquering civ also had the Barbarian trait). Depending on the flavour of the improvement, it doesn't *necessarily* have to disappear when changing hands.

 

[CyberChrist]

what about they can build an improvement on desert tiles, which increases their yield... so it would not be too easy to use deserts? and with a nice graphic it could add some more flavor

Hmm, how about just +1 food (no improvement needed) and the ability to build cottages on desert plots(for the Malakim only)? That way desert plots would still be of more use to Malakim than anyone else, but it would require the usual amount of work to get any real benefit from desert plots.

A similar approach to give Doviello a boost on Tundra and/or Snow plots might be worth considering as well.

 

[R0GERSHRUBBER]

The Bannor also strike me as an uninteresting Civ. They have some nice graphics and an interesting story, but it doesn't amount to much in terms of unique mechanics.

I would also say that the Hippus don't have all that much in the way of unique features. I liked the mounted settlers; how about mounted arcane units? Horse-drawn catapults and cannons?

 

[Kael]

As in any project that is halfway done there is a bunch of refinement to do. Some civs need a lot of work, we have 4 scheduled for design focus in "Shadow" that should be interesting.

I can understand the desire to make every civ have cool mechanics, there are some players that love them. But part of the variety we are trying to build means that some will be flashy, and some will be subtle. The Hippus are a great example. We will probably delve deeper into their mercenary aspects, but by and large they are done as they are. Their mechanics aren't flashy, but they are effective. Some civs will follow that design.

Then you have ones like the Khazad that force you to rethink the way you play, or the Calabim that get cool little bonuses. Each is designed to appeal to different sorts of players, I don't expect anyone to love all the civs. But I do expect that all the civs will be loved by a significant group of players.

I dont pay much attention to the "least favorite civ" polls. It doesn't matter to me if 80% of players dont like to play a specific civ as long as a significant portion do enjoy playing them.

So dont think about cool mechanics everywhere. Think about different sorts of players and making sure they have a civ that matches the way they like to play. At least thats what the team and I were going for when we designed them.

Thats not to say that I disagree with improving and improving to make each civ as good as possible. Only that I dont want each civ to have flashy mechanics.

 

[Antheanian]

I don't think each civ have or need flashy mechanics. Besides Basium, Hyborem and maybe the Calabim, all other civs are pretty close to civ4 vanilla in the game mechanics (happiness, health, food, production, commerce, etc...). I never played calabim, basium or hyborem, thinking that they are too complicated at the moment. I will try Hyborem in a near future though.

But flavor wise, I do agree with Pocus and some others that the Bannor and Malakim civ are the two civs with the less ffh2 specific units or artwork. These two civs would benefits from a little facelift. Maybe Shadow will bring this? Svartalfar, Sidar and Illians are also less attractive (or unplayable), but the team already announced that they would be improved by Shadow.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Besides Basium, Hyborem and maybe the Calabim, all other civs are pretty close to civ4 vanilla in the game mechanics

Kuriotates and Khazad are very different as well.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

What's wrong with having a Civ or two that plays very much like a vanilla one? Varn Gosam is my favorite leader (to play ), and when I play Flauros my strategies don't rely heavily on vampires at all.

 

[jblaze0]

The Bannor also strike me as an uninteresting Civ. They have some nice graphics and an interesting story, but it doesn't amount to much in terms of unique mechanics.

I know this is not supposed to turn into a "my most favorite and least favorite civ" thread, but I really have to take exception to this. The Bannor are one of my favorites to play. I like the "crusader" motifs and enjoy smashing other civs that have cities with evil religions.

 

[CyberChrist]

While I would agree that not all civs are - or indeed should be - equally flashy and/or strong then I do feel that any abilities that would fit a particular civs profile - and does not unbalance the game majorly - should be implemented, if at all possible. Especially if it does not require too much time consuming work to do so.

On the issue of balance then remember that giving a civ a fitting but seemingly unbalancing powerfull ability, can be countered by giving them another equally fitting but detrimental and penalizing disadvantage (if any can be thought of, of course).

While some might see this as one step forward and one back then it does add more flavor. And the more you make each civ step into character and play differently from any other civs available - the higher the replayability of the mod as a whole will be.