Civs - thinking out of the box

[Lockesdonkey]

The problem I see with this whole system (which is excellent, by the way, despite my objections) is that though the cultures that are named in the original post might occupy the same territory in succession, they often have nothing to do with one another.

 

[Swedishguy]

Unique Wonders are ********. Other than that, good job! Even though I think Gripen would be better than Saab Viggen...

 

[terentius]

Lockesdonkey: I guess the issue is deciding whether to take a nation's history based on the land it occupies, or the people/culture that occupy it. In the case of the Americas, Australia and New Zealand, where existing cultures were supplanted by colonists, I can see how this may be more of an issue.

Speaking from a UK perspective, our take on history tends to focus more on the islands as the constant feature, and then record all the peoples who have settled here (Picts, Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Norse, French...). Rather than include all of these as separate civs, I call them all British if they happened to live in the British isles.

From a US perspective, history pre-1600 will be the same as British/French/Spanish history. Does this mean that the US should disappear as a civ before this time?

I prefer to include the native cultures, despite the fact that there's a cultural 'disconnect' between the two. That's just my take on it, anyway.

 

[terentius]

Swedishguy:
Unique Wonders are ********.

How so? Is it the concept? The Sphinx is uniquely Egyptian, Eiffel Tower uniquely French, Great Wall uniquely Chinese. Why allow other countries to build monuments that have nothing to do with them? In the game, wonders are one-off constructions that everyone must race to build. This, to me, indicates something more like a race (such as 'first to get to space/the Moon' or 'first to achieve flight'), rather than a building (since buildings can be copied or built elsewhere - ziggurats, pyramids, Mayan temples, for example).

Is it the choice of wonders for each civ? I went with the ones from the game and applied them to their original countries, and tried to come up with some new ones for the extra countries. If you have particular thoughts on better wonders, why not post them up?

Or is it the bonuses I've attributed to each wonder? I'm open to better ideas.

For example, why would the Gripen be better than a Viggen? What qualities does it have that would make it a better unit in the game? I chose the Viggen because it has the advantage of using roads as airports.

Looking forward to hearing your reply.

cheers!

T

 

[Swedishguy]

Swedishguy:
Unique Wonders are ********.

How so? Is it the concept? The Sphinx is uniquely Egyptian, Eiffel Tower uniquely French, Great Wall uniquely Chinese. Why allow other countries to build monuments that have nothing to do with them? In the game, wonders are one-off constructions that everyone must race to build. This, to me, indicates something more like a race (such as 'first to get to space/the Moon' or 'first to achieve flight'), rather than a building (since buildings can be copied or built elsewhere - ziggurats, pyramids, Mayan temples, for example).

I think you miss the point about wonders. They're meant to be a source of power, and whoever gets there first, gets that power.

Is it the choice of wonders for each civ? I went with the ones from the game and applied them to their original countries, and tried to come up with some new ones for the extra countries. If you have particular thoughts on better wonders, why not post them up?

Or is it the bonuses I've attributed to each wonder? I'm open to better ideas.

Nothing wrong with the wonders.

For example, why would the Gripen be better than a Viggen? What qualities does it have that would make it a better unit in the game? I chose the Viggen because it has the advantage of using roads as airports.

Gripen simply has put a lot more of impressiveness on the world. That's the whole point of UU's.

 

[terentius]

Hi Swedishguy,
Wonders. "They're meant to be a source of power, and whoever gets there first, gets that power."

OK, but to my mind, that would apply better to something like a 'race' (Space Race: if you win, you get tactical advantages; race to circumnavigate globe: you get commercial advantages). To me, a wonder is part of a nation's character that can't be transferred to another.

"Gripen simply has put a lot more of impressiveness on the world. That's the whole point of UU's."
But how would it affect gameplay? What is it about the Gripen that makes it special (beyond exports and the boost to the Swedish economy)?

 

[Glored]

lol. terentius, you sound sooo academic. nice.

Umm, these wonder arguments gives me an idea. Y not make similar cultures race to build the wonder? Say, the great walls can only be built by mongolia, india and china. Then they race to build this great wall. Parthenon can only be built by greek, roman and whatever country that u think suitable. At least it won't go far off? So the architecture or purpose still suits well with the idea/culture of the civ. I think specializing a wonder to a certain civ only will make it just like any other unique building instead of a wonder.

 

[flyingchicken]

lol.

Dr. Hibbert.
_____

Unique wonders mean less satisfaction in completing wonders since there is no competition. More realism, but a whole lot less fun, in my opinion.

I myself like a lot of flavor, but I prefer the feeling of "I beat them ALL to the Great Lighthouse ha ha ha beakers!" over seeing the Great Lighthouse being restricted to the Greeks (or something like that).

I'm sure some people find flavor and realism more satisfying than playing the game purely as a game, so the idea of unique wonders will never lose support. Whether the idea is a good or bad one is in the eye of the beholder, and as such can never be resolved in any way.

Disclaimer: Author of post spews more opinions faster than he can verify fact.

 

[Tronicoz]

Swedish UU could be the Jarl wich maybie replaces rifleman?

 

[Swedishguy]

Swedish UU could be the Jarl wich maybie replaces rifleman?

Please, Sweden is much more known for Gripen.

 

[The Flame]

Wow, those are some great ideas!

 

[Commy]

(use Mirage 2000 as jet fighter, Vulcan as bomber)
(use Eurofighter as modern jet, Hind as modern helicopter)

Will Russia use them too?

(use SU47 as modern jet, Huey as modern helicopter)

May be SU-27?
About Russia and Ukraine: they both were parts of Scythia in ancient times. Bosporian kingdom and Cumania (Polovtsy means Cumans, i.e. population, not contry) were populated by greeks and cumans. I think its better to use Great Principality of Kiev for M, and Hetmanat of Ukraine (or hetmanship? - see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetman) for G. For Russia is better to use Great Principality of Moscow (or of Vladimir) for M, Russian empire for G, USSR for I and Russian Federation for M.

 

[terentius]

Hi Glored and Flyingchicken,

perhaps we can work out what would make a good 'national wonder' (like the Sphinx, Great Wall, etc) and what would make a good 'highlander' wonder (as in, 'There can be only one!' - actually, that's probably not such a good nickname...).
I quite agree that having to race to build a wonder spices the game up.

How's this for starters:

Achievements
Industrial revolution (production bonus for next few turns)
Connecting all cities with trade routes/monopoly (commercial bonus)
First to destroy another civ by capturing its cities (military bonus, become an empire)
Circumnavigation (movement, commercial bonuses)
First to connect to another civ by road (commercial bonus)
First to adopt a particular religion (morale bonus)
First to have radio/TV/internet (culture bonus)
First to have printing (culture, anti-corruption bonuses)

Projects (haven't thought of bonuses for these yet)
Space Race project (Industrial)
Atomic Bomb project (Industrial)
ITER (fusion energy) project (Modern)
Gene code project (Modern)
World Bank project (Industrial)
United Nations project (Industrial)
Standardised world map/meridian line project (Global)
Global stock exchange (Global)

Hopefully, these will be enough to cover all eras in the game.


"terentius, you sound sooo academic"
Go, on, say it. I sound old, don't I? (sigh).

Dr. Evil: I'm with it. I'm hip. Well, don't look at me like I'm friggin' Frankenstein!

 

[terentius]

Hi Commy,

regarding the jet fighters, I wanted to throw in some distinct and different-looking models (again, for 'flavour'), so that there are delta-wings, forward-swept wings, swept-back wings and the like. But I'm not so attached to these idea that I'm unwilling to have them replaced by better suggestions.

I'm in two minds about the USSR: on one hand, it is part of Russian history. On the other, it only came about because of communism, which in the game is a a choice the player can make.

I guess this goes back to one of Flyingchicken's ideas about giving specific names to certain combinations of civs and civics (Russia+Communism = USSR, USA+slavery = Confederacy, India+Islam = Mughals. This would also lead to Germany+fascism = Nazis which would be unlikely to be implemented in any retail version of the game).

cheers,

T

 

[Glored]

"Germany+fascism = Nazis which would be unlikely to be implemented in any retail version of the game" very true.

the achievements is quite interesting, but omg, that's too much i think.

btw, the combination of the civ with government giving a certain name would be very very very complicated. One thing, we have a LOT if civilization, and another we have a LOT of government forms (since it's a combination of a lot of aspects). I think we're making a big fuss about a small thing (i.e. names)?