Code of Laws, Great tech, or GREATest tech?

[shivute]

Still, you're likely better off going after bronze working or animal husbandry first (raging barbs can be different, but I'd say it's still worth taking a stab at nearby copper/horses). You've got plenty of time before the barbarians actually start venturing into your territory. A proper net of warriors can even work to extend that time. I play on mostly immortal now and find that I rarely build a single archer in most games.

Immortal eh? I think I need to play a lot more to even consider surviving emperor consistantly without archers.
I find that if I do go for BW and AH first I die. I don't have enough time to build a worker, a settler and defensive units. Instead I will build 2 archers in my city and take it from there.
I often see the barbs massing outside my city and was attacked by 8 in a single turn once. I do always select raging barbs though.
Before warlords I used to put warriors on forested hills and the barbs would attack them, now it seems that the barbs aren't interested in attacking these outposts but are more interested in pillage and will bypass (which stands to reason)

 

[cabert]

i started (finally) a second game on warlords. This time, monarch level, and i had only a few tiles with fog (3 fogbusters on a small peninsulla).
However my second city was destroyed by a barb archer much sooner than i expected to see a barbarian!
I learned at my expenses that archery is indeed needed for warlords (all the more so when you're protective )

 

[Jorunkun]

I can see that. With archer barbs on the higher levels showing up almost immediately and axes right behind, archery would be a good first choice.

Weeeeellll ... frankly, I think on Emperor, you can safely bypass archery in nine games out of ten, provided you beeline for BW (which I agree is the most important, in the sense of game-changing, tech) or AH. Moving up to Immortal I have recently had to resort to researching archery in about a third of my games, but I still fel like a dweeb if I do. Much prefer games where I can go straight for BW, hook up the bronze and get axes online, for barbbusting and that all important early rush. Trade for archery later - all the AIs have it by default.

My next beeline is usually alphabet (still your best shot at early tradebait for IW and mathematics, and gives you an idea where you are in research relative to the AI), then currency if peaceful or construction if bracing for war.

COL only gets important for me after the first third of the game, and forced to choose, I'd likely prioritise CS over COL.

EDIT: And don't forget philosophy, best gotten via GS lightbulbing - on immortal, this is one of the few relaible leverage points to catch up in the techtree via trading)

 

[shivute]

hmmm
9 out of 10 games you bypass it. So that 10th game you die because there is no copper or horses?
I don't want to run the risk of dying and I want to survive every game start. I just don't see how you can guarentee the nearby resources needed (without cheating), research everything required and build everything required in time.

I think archery is the safe way to go while anything else is a gamble.

 

[MrCynical]

Archery is a tech of desperation, not a priority. There is no reason whatever to research it prior to bronze working (and if you have copper you'll never need it), and you can get bronze well beefore the AI will declare war or barbs reach dangerous levels. Archery is still of dubious value prior to animal husbandry and/or ironworking, but it is conceivable that barbs or AI might require a defender before those could be researched. I would still get AH and BW before even considering archery, and only then if I lack horses and copper. I might well go for IW as well before giving up and resorting to archers.

 

[Eqqman]

I'm not sure why you'd value Chariots so much over Archers, assuming you have no Copper. With Chariots you are forced to attack to get the best use out of them, which means that your targets are getting defensive bonuses and you often have to wait for them to walk into the open. Barbarian Archers & Axemen won't have too much trouble holding out. With Archers however you can get yourself into nice defensive spots and won't have to build nearly so many.

 

[Sisiutil]

More like a woman after your own heart.

And a bright one to boot....

....unless arguing philosophy.

On the Internet, no one knows if you're a philosopher.

 

[MrCynical]

I'm not sure why you'd value Chariots so much over Archers, assuming you have no Copper. With Chariots you are forced to attack to get the best use out of them, which means that your targets are getting defensive bonuses and you often have to wait for them to walk into the open. Barbarian Archers & Axemen won't have too much trouble holding out. With Archers however you can get yourself into nice defensive spots and won't have to build nearly so many.

Bear in mind that I play Warlords, in which chariots have a major bonus against axemen, so against barbarian axemen they are very effective. They're effective against barbarian archers anyway.

Also the approach you suggest for archers relies purely on waiting for the enemy to come to you. When attacking chariots are almost always superior to archers, and the old maxim that the best defense is a good offense translates well into Civ. Archers are better when holed up in a city, but again being in that position I regard as a sign of desperation, with archers as a last resort. It also leaves your enemies free to pillage your terrain improvements (particularly the ones on flatland where archers are not very good defenders).

 

[Moonsinger]

On the Internet, no one knows if you're a philosopher.

Well, I didn't know that you are a woman either.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I think I get it... Archers for the defensive game, BW/AH for the offensive game. I tend to be offensive to my enemy no matter what I do, but I go BW then Alphabet every single game as it is (haven't lost on Monarch since the change), and was interested in trying out different starting paths now that I have finally moved up to Emperor. (damn, the AI is getting unreal.)

CoL is quite useful but there are so many techs near it that help at least as much that I wouldn't call it a pinnacle tech by any means, more like a gateway tech. I spend more time getting currency+construction over civil service+machinery so CoL is my favorite gateway tech after Alphabet.

My $0.02,
SR
Finally playing Emperor
-Let's see if I can win the first one. I feel like I got sloppy in Monarch once I figured out how to explode through the middle ages and leave the AI in the dust, since the AI seems to always catch up around rifling. Time to move up. It will force me to fight harder.

 

[drkodos]

On the Internet, no one knows if you're a philosopher.

It was sort of an inside barb, which like sarcasm, never seems to flow with the same type of viscosity it gets in real life.


@Moonsinger: I like the argument you presented for Alphabet. Makes total sense.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

CoL is VERY low down on my set of priorities.

Courthouses cost a bomb unless you are cursed with the organised trait (warlords) and even then and for not that much value. If cash is tight have one merchant city on wealth to sort it. Caste System means you won't be running serfdom which is preferable due to the easy chops completion of your infrastructure quickly and that buildings pave the way for a supportable amount of specialists anyhow.

Give me contruction and feudalism ahead of it any day of the week!

Indeed to my way of thinking Feudalism is the single most important technology. Serfdom, longbows and vassalage rolled into one...amazingly good and not dependent upon any resources. x2 hill movement longbows, ooh I feel warm and wet.

 

[PeteJ]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned pottery as the best tech in the game. Early cottages can be the difference between victory and defeat in many games. On some maps, you can keep a decent science rate and expand to 6 or 7 cities without courthouses as long as you get those cottages up ASAP and in at least 3 of your cities. I am playing an emporer game right now, and in 500 BC I had 6 cities and was running at 60% science with a small deficit before I even researched COL. Pottery owns.... end of story.

 

[Jorunkun]

hmmm
9 out of 10 games you bypass it. So that 10th game you die because there is no copper or horses?
I don't want to run the risk of dying and I want to survive every game start. I just don't see how you can guarentee the nearby resources needed (without cheating), research everything required and build everything required in time.

I think archery is the safe way to go while anything else is a gamble.

The tenth game I research archery after BW and AH, if barbs turn out to be a problem. But mostly they don't, not on emperor anyways.

Like you, I play every start, no reloading, and play to survive. Which is why on Immortal (and in this months gotm) I actually do wind up researching archery sometimes.

But it is much more of a gamble to always start with archery on that level, because while archers buy you relative safety from barbs, you wind up with a defensive military and thus delay your opportunity to rush AI neighbours. That's much more likely to lose you the game than an unstoppable barbarian onslaught.

 

[HectorSpector]

It's far better to go for BW, and then hit on AH if you didn't get any bronze resource. You should manage to get both of these before barb animals disappear and archers/warriors/axemen take their place. Of course if you didn't hit any horses either, you've got a dillema. Do you now risk it and take some time to get IW, or do you take archery to protect yourself in the meantime?

Barbarians on emperor are a nightmare for me, but I suppose they do force you to build more protection for your cities, which is never a bad thing. Warriors escorting settlers aint really worth squat when you run into an archer.

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, I didn't know that you are a woman either.

Er, not really.

I have an "inner woman" that I'm in touch with, though.

In fact, I'm touching her right now...

 

[shivute]

The tenth game I research archery after BW and AH, if barbs turn out to be a problem. But mostly they don't, not on emperor anyways.

Like you, I play every start, no reloading, and play to survive. Which is why on Immortal (and in this months gotm) I actually do wind up researching archery sometimes.

But it is much more of a gamble to always start with archery on that level, because while archers buy you relative safety from barbs, you wind up with a defensive military and thus delay your opportunity to rush AI neighbours. That's much more likely to lose you the game than an unstoppable barbarian onslaught.

I tried researching BW again before archery on emperor with playing Frederick - good choice as Hunting and Mining are needed for both so not so much of a gamble. Guess what - no copper anywhere on my visible map, I had to quickly research archery and chop the archers before the barbs came.
I can see now to survive the barb onslaught researching mining, BW and the wheel, building a settler, a worker and enough warriors to survive is possible. However I feel the number of trees I would have to chop and the time spent building warriors that will die is a waste. I also still think it is a gamble on copper being available.
I am really interested in researching BW before Archery or even ignoring it altogether but I am either not good enough yet to make it work on emperor or I am just missing something. It may be because I always play raging barbs or because I play on marathon?
And before I get a reply stating that there are more barbs on raging barbs, funnily enough I know this already!

 

[cabert]

I am really interested in researching BW before Archery or even ignoring it altogether but I am either not good enough yet to make it work on emperor or I am just missing something. It may be because I always play raging barbs or because I play on marathon?
And before I get a reply stating that there are more barbs on raging barbs, funnily enough I know this already!

you know, there are more barbs on raging barbs !

+ if you play warlords, there are more barbs too!
+ on marathon, there are more barbs too (not a turn basis but on a general time scale = so much more turns between archery (cheap) and BW (not so cheap) where barbs can pop!

If you want to avoid archery, you're going to need a lot of warriors, not to die but to fogbust.
A typical fogbusting number of warriors would be 3 or 4, before the copper is connected. And this is assuming you can find good hills and the AIs all around expand like mad (= better targets+fogbusting).
You don't need a warrior inside the city, really.

 

[shivute]

I don't like fogbusting, especially now when the barbs so often just walk past your units towards the pillageable tiles.
I think I need to stick to archery at the moment just to survive and that is why it is the most crucial tech for me.

 

[drkodos]

If you want to avoid archery, you're going to need a lot of warriors, not to die but to fogbust.

Or one could use scouts.

Scouts, with the two movement points and increased lines of sight are great fogbusters. If one is willing to use them as sacrifices to lure Barbarians into areas where they are more easily dispatched, they really come into their own.

I have found that fogbusting with scouts is much more effective than using warriors because it gives the player a little more time to make strategic decisions on troop movemnet and placement. Then, once (if?) they get a promotion, go with healing to use them later as Medics in large stacks.