Colonialism, Exploitation and Independence

[Evie]

Which is a straw man of the actual claim that all colonial efforts took steps, knowingly or not, that left indigenous populations more vulnerable to the devastation of multiple epidemics - both virgin field epidemics of new diseases brought by settlers, and also the impact of already endemic diseases made more devastating by the impact of colonial disturbances.

Not that all of them had absolutely identical outcomes. Or that they all were all the same.

 

[Ajidica]

African Elites are absolutely to blame as well, I don't want to give the impression that colonialism is the only reason for these countries long-standing issues, I just think we can't ignore or downplay the situation and circumstances in which a country is formed.

Fair enough; I've just seen those words deployed to present every problem of modern africa (including by people active in this thread) as being 100% the fault and responsibility of the colonial power.

IRT "easily lead to nuclear war" I'm talking specifically about Pakistan and India.

Russia hadn't tested their nukes when Pakistan and India became independent, so that's not something you can blame the Brits for!

 

[danjuno]

Russia hadn't tested their nukes when Pakistan and India became independent, so that's not something you can blame the Brits for!

You're missing the point: they got nukes later, but the divisions were already there.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here one drop can qualify you for being Maori.

Technically 0 drop can as well.

20% of the population identity as Maori.

 

[Yeekim]

You're missing the point: they got nukes later, but the divisions were already there.

The divisions were there well before the Brits.

Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Yeekim]

Graeber quotes extensively from Fray Toribio de Molina, a contemporary rival of Las Casas who reported what he witnessed himself. His reports are of a piece with other contemporary reports.

The atrocities witnessed by de Molina and Las Casas are not really under question.

When we are looking for reasons behind any issues in modern Mexico however, there's got to be more immediate and relevant causes than events that took place 500 years ago.

 

[Ordnael]

I don't defend colonialism back then when European powers followed in the footsteps of Portugal. Not that I can or would argue against my ancestors for that as it was the age of exploration, but automatically labelling, with the approval of the Catholic church, any other humanoid barely clothed as sub human was plainly wrong and that concept gave way to an atrocious mass murdering spree.
I also don't defend colonialism now or the new colonizers movements. In this I believe I am consistent, very unlike some posters who condemn the wrongs of past ages but throw a blind eye at the woes of the natives and at the violence and crumbling of their livelihood by ethnic conflicts arising of new colonisers, most of them male and in conscription age, from other continents. Just like in the past but instead of being sanctioned just by the church so are the political aligned with erasing of European blood and European natural diversity. I will not stand for this.

 

[Samson]

The atrocities witnessed by de Molina and Las Casas are not really under question.

When we are looking for reasons behind any issues in modern Mexico however, there's got to be more immediate and relevant causes than events that took place 500 years ago.

The question when it comes to compensation is the ability to pay. The colonising powers are the most obvious entities with that as well as a demonstrable causal influence.

 

[EnglishEdward]

In many cases the colonising powers no longer exist so the question of compensation is irrelevant.

 

[banzay13]

Well, if not British Empire - where will be no such big India nowadays for sure. Small countries with constant territorial conflicts. Maybe they could be richer, coz keep their treasures within their nations , instead driven out by brits (and others EU), could be an EU like organisation in India instead? Probably no. As example - Arab World. No unity here.
Could African counties be more welfare than now? Well, Rodezia, SA as example show us - no. You need several generation lived by law order to create sustainable society (and colonial rule didn't do that, the main mission was extract wealth)

 

[Samson]

In many cases the colonising powers no longer exist so the question of compensation is irrelevant.

This was split from the UK thread, so in this case the entity exists.

 

[choxorn]

the violence and crumbling of their livelihood by ethnic conflicts arising of new colonisers, most of them male and in conscription age, from other continents.

What do you mean by this, who are the new colonisers?

In many cases the colonising powers no longer exist so the question of compensation is irrelevant.

Which powers do you think don't exist anymore? They're not colonizing or actively trying to conquer the world anymore and they exist in different forms, but the UK, Spain, France, Portugal, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Russia, Italy, Denmark, and Sweden very much all still exist, last time I checked. Some of them still have a few of their old colonial territories!

 

[r16]

Russia hadn't tested their nukes when Pakistan and India became independent, so that's not something you can blame the Brits for!

not taking sides at all , but the reason for the Russian espionage success in penetrating the Manhattan Project is the effort the British took to cover up their own spying to steal the "secrets" . Before anyone tells me that the British in fact started the whole thing and had so many people in the research teams , at some point the process became totally "American" and the 10 or so years took London to test its own devices was not just a question of required industrial effort . So , like , yeah , one can very much blame the Brits for !

 

[amadeus]

Britain didn’t know who was spying for Russia and wanted to get them out. In America it was just the opposite.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Which powers do you think don't exist anymore?

The Roman Empire does not exist anymore.

The Mongol Empire does not exist anymore.

The British Empire does not exist anymore.

The Third Reich does not exist anymore.

The Portuguese Empire does not exist any more.

I could go on.... but I hope you see my point.

 

[Yeekim]

The question when it comes to compensation is the ability to pay. The colonising powers are the most obvious entities with that as well as a demonstrable causal influence.

Anyone looking for "compensation" for events that took place generations ago, outside of living memory, is just being greedy and should spend their energy at something more productive.

Said as someone whose country has been under occupation by foreign colonizers for ~ 750 of the last 800 years and who also supports general developmental assistance to poorer countries.

 

[amadeus]

The Roman Empire does not exist anymore.

1922 was an eventful year.

The British Empire does not exist anymore

The Portuguese Empire does not exist any more.

In continuity of the nation-state, both do.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Those empires were not nation states.

 

[r16]

roman empire under other powers is not a thing you would actually be able to wrap your minds around . If we are not paying with regards to Armenian claims , we are not paying for Carthage either .

 

[banzay13]

Anyone looking for "compensation" for events that took place generations ago, outside of living memory, is just being greedy and should spend their energy at something more productive.

Said as someone whose country has been under occupation by foreign colonizers for ~ 750 of the last 800 years and who also supports general developmental assistance to poorer countries.

Are you sure that nations existed 800 years ago?