Colonialism, Exploitation and Independence

[Evie]

Even the most optimistic population estimates for Precolumbian Northern America (Canada/US) still have Mesoamerica and South America *considerably* more populous to begin with, so, kind of a major factor in that outcome right there.

Not to mention the impact of very different immigration policies at both the colonial and post-colonial level.

In short, a poor piece of evidence.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Even the most optimistic population estimates for Precolumbian Northern America (Canada/US) still have Mesoamerica and South America *considerably* more populous to begin with, so, kind of a major factor in that outcome right there.

Not to mention the impact of very different immigration policies at both the colonial and post-colonial level.

In short, a poor piece of evidence.

Yes 1.1% indigenous population in USA vs a 75% or more in Mexico. Very poor evidence indeed.

Race and ethnicity in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Demographics of Mexico - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[choxorn]

What's your point, exactly, that compared to the British colonists, the Spanish colonists were a tad less genocide-y and more willing to have kids with the natives?

 

[Evie]

Your Wikipedia link does not, in fact, give 75% Indigenous population to Mexico.

I can only assume you're lumping Mestizo as Indigenous, which, your own article again warn against because Mestizo in Mexico is a much more complex category that goes well beyond mixed ancestry (and even mixed ancestry would have to consider how much ancestry and how far back - having one indigenous ancestor somewhere in your family tree does not make you indigenous.

If one drop of indigenous ancestry made you indigenous, I would be. And while there would be nothing wrong with me being indigenous were that true - it just isn't (hell, it doesn't even make me a Métis in the much more narrow Canadian sense). Not culturally, not socially, not in any meaningful genealogical sense. It takes more than that to make one belong to a group.

 

[danjuno]

I think you guys are installed in a set of beliefs based in faith but without any factual base.

You said this right after Lexi quoted from a source.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I disagree on that. Mestizo in Mexico means being very indigneous since nearly 100% Mexicans have indigenous people among his ancestors, including most self-declared white Mexicans i know. Still 66% pure indigenous...

 

[Thorgalaeg]

You said this right after Lexi quoted from a source.

American and British anthropologist, left-wing and anarchist social and political activist.

Maybe a bit tendentious?

 

[danjuno]

American and British anthropologist, left-wing and anarchist social and political activist.

Maybe a bit tendentious?

Can you actually point to where they are wrong/incorrect?

 

[NovaKart]

August Engelhardt (1875-1919) started an actual nudist colony in German New Guinea where he practiced a coconut based diet and gave up clothes completely.

He attracted some followers but he died most likely from the health effects of the coconut only diet.

August Engelhardt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lexicus]

American and British anthropologist, left-wing and anarchist social and political activist.

Maybe a bit tendentious?

Graeber quotes extensively from Fray Toribio de Molina, a contemporary rival of Las Casas who reported what he witnessed himself. His reports are of a piece with other contemporary reports.

 

[Evie]

Disagree all you will, but at this point, even your sources don't agree with you.

Meanwhile, your response to other people's source is pure ad hominem. So...

 

[choxorn]

Still 66% pure indigenous

 

[Lexicus]

Wait this dude believes 2/3 of the population of Mexico today is "pure indigenous"?? lmao

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Try to read the very quoted article we were discussing. I cant do much more for you.

 

[danjuno]

I like how all the defenses raised of colonialism so far in this thread are either:
1. Ad Hominem Attacks
2. Unsubstantiated Claims
3. A Wikipedia article that still requires the person posting it to lawyer the definition of "indigenous".
Also:

Try to read the very quoted article we were discussing. I cant do much more for you.

Disagree all you will, but at this point, even your sources don't agree with you.

Meanwhile, your response to other people's source is pure ad hominem. So...

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I dont discuss the 66% of population being indigenous (the extemely high indigenous component is pretty evident), the 16% mestizo either, i discuss the rest being "white", in the sense white is understood in the US, where having a black ancestor makes you of mixed race. In Mexico having a indigenous ancestor is almost unavoidable logically, and it doesnt make one less white.

Anyway, will you guys stop rambling and admit the fact there are huge, huge differences in the demogaphies of USA and Hispanoamerica countries or will this epic rejection of reality continue?

 

[Evie]

By the standard you have elaborated, which is an extreme reading of "mixed race" based on an equally extreme reading of white supremacists one-drop laws that were specifically about being black, and reflect the impact of those laws on the communities it affected, I'm not white.

That sure is news to me. And to Stats Canada. And to census takers.

 

[W|M]

Spain only brought to Europe a fifth of the resources, known as "el Quinto Real".

The Quinto Real was what the Crown took (and was not the only Iberian tax on gold), the rest of it was sent (legally or illegally) to private noblemen and merchants...in Europe

 

[choxorn]

You said "66% pure indigenous" which suggests you think that high a portion of Mexicans have 100% (or close to it) Amerindian ancestry. From the source you gave us:

The latest intercensal survey carried out by the Mexican government in 2015 reports that Indigenous people make up 21.5% of Mexico's population, including both those who self-identified as "Indigenous" and people who self-identified as "partially Indigenous". According to the 2020 national Mexican census, 19.4% of the population self-identified as Indigenous.

So what exactly did you mean by that, then? Yeah, Latin Americans are a lot more likely than white people in the US and Canada to have significant non-European ancestry. We're not disputing that. What we're taking issue with is you seem to be making the argument "But the Brits were crappier to the natives than the Spanish were!" which, okay? And? That's not a particularly good defense of the Spanish Empire!

 

[Thorgalaeg]

You said "66% pure indigenous" which suggests you think that high a portion of Mexicans have 100% (or close to it) Amerindian ancestry. From the source you gave us:

Ups sorry, i was looking at the 1793 census. So just before independence from Spain, which makes it even more relevant. After 200 years people have mixed, so pure indigenous went down while mestizes went up.

So what exactly did you mean by that, then? Yeah, Latin Americans are a lot more likely than white people in the US and Canada to have significant non-European ancestry. We're not disputing that. What we're taking issue with is you seem to be making the argument "But the Brits were crappier to the natives than the Spanish were!" which, okay? And? That's not a particularly good defense of the Spanish Empire!

I mean things were different, answering precisely the claim (dont know if it was you) about all empires being the same.