Come to Jesus, O Ye Sinners!

Originally posted by SirJethro


Are you referring to religions or governments now? :lol:

SirJethro engages evasive manoeuvres.

You know of what I am talking.
Governments know that they are using the god angle as a tool.

The church has far more blame on it's plate, for they are men acting as tools of a god.

No human has the authority.
It's sick power-mongering, pure and simple.

You can make light of it, as you will.
But churches nowadays must miss the days when they had full power of life and death.

I for one am glad that their corrupt power is reduced. :lol:
 
Well seeing how everyone is pretty much unanamous (or however that's spelled) on this I don't really see a need to start crusading for the Gay cause.

It is ridiculous of course I feel bad for the people that will be led to feel guilty for something they can't controll and will put themselves through the anguish of trying to change who they are.

Mormons have been trying to "cure" my kind for a long time now with very horrid results, including many suicides. When a whole society tells you that who are is wrong and evil and tries to change you into something you are not it can have devistating effects on you.

I just wanna say thank you to all those that are apart of the more loving and accepting part of the Faith Based community.
 
hm.. I wrote a pretty long reply to this... but before I hit the submit reply button I looked throu it and realised that most of it was bashing Christian and religious people.... Perhaps even worth a bann....


So I'm rewriting my reply. To noones suprise I think this is just plain harassment of homosexualls and so ****ing stupid.


Just let me say a few words about thier so called liberated people, homosexualls turning hetrosexuall.

They are nothing but brainwased people. People who are so full of shame laid opon them by the church that they would say anything to be accepted. For a religius person it's devistateing to day after day hear that you are living in sin and you are a disgrace for the church. They have no self-confidence and that they have abandoned thier god.

Theyare led to belive that the only way to get back to thier god is to claim that they are hetrosexuall and surpress every homosexuall thought.


I hope what I just wrote make any sence...
 
Originally posted by SirJethro
I'm Presbyterian, which admits open gays (and women) to the clergy

Which is quite odd when you think about it, as the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and that the church's "leaders" wife's behaviour should reflect positivity on her spouse.
 
Originally posted by archer_007


Which is quite odd when you think about it, as the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and that the church's "leaders" wife's behaviour should reflect positivity on her spouse.

That the bible says it is a sin is a matter of interpretation. BTW...if I don't beleive in Adam and Eve am I going to hell?

Do you know that there is not a single word in the bible that was actually written by someone who knew Jesus firsthand?
 
Originally posted by WillJ
Wasn't Jesus gay? I mean, didn't he love everybody? ;)

Well, he never got married, hung around with twelve guys and drank a lot of wine. Hmmmmmmm.

Maybe he meant something completely different than we think when he said "Love thy neighbor".
 
Originally posted by archer_007


Which is quite odd when you think about it, as the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin .

It also says the breaking the Sabath is a sin deserving of death
 
These gay 'outreach' programs fail because they forget one simple thing: Sexual practices may change but not sexual orientation. These people think it would be much better to have everyone who is gay sitting piously in fundamentalist prayer meetings and Bible studies, where they can be instructed on how to be cured (by exorcism and other modern medical approaches) of their homosexuality. Cured or exorcised , they can then "marry" dedicated Christian spouses and help the divorce rates to skyrocket, as well as possibly spreading AIDS into heterosexual American life. Obviously this will do more to help kill off ideological Fundamentalism than a lot of serious Biblical study and theological arguments.
 
The Bible never says homosexuality is wrong. It just says that non-reproductive sex is wrong. So that includes the only forms of sex availible to gays. So, in a sense you could say its wrong. I'm just splitting hairs, BTW.

And I know lots of heterosexuals use the same methods...
 
Originally posted by archer_007
Which is quite odd when you think about it, as the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and that the church's "leaders" wife's behaviour should reflect positivity on her spouse.
There is one and only one reference to homosexuality in the Bible, which is in the book Leviticus. That book says that homosexuality is an "abomination." It then goes on to say that eating shrimp and lobster is also an "abomination." (So, everyone that eats at, say, Red Lobster, is exactly like a homosexual in God's eyes). Later on, Leviticus discusses the proper way to sell your daughters into slavery, and, as andrewgprv has already mentioned, it steadfastly claims that anyone caught working on the Sabbath should be put to death.

It's amazing how many Christians seem to pick and choose what they're going to follow in the Bible, and what they'll conveniently ignore.
 
Originally posted by Fez_Monk
...as well as possibly spreading AIDS into heterosexual American life.
Huh? AIDS is common in heterosexual American life, isn't it?
 
Originally posted by Raijer

There is one and only one reference to homosexuality in the Bible, which is in the book Leviticus. [...]

Homosexuality is condemned in Sodom: “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh [homosexuality], are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 7)


Genesis 19 presents homosexuality as the last stage of debauchery. The men of Sodom desired homosexual relations with Lot’s guests and were willing to rape them if necessary. God wrought total destruction upon Sodom. Sodom was not destroyed because the inhabitants were inhospitable, as some claim. Just being inhospitable would not explain such a total judgment by God. God utterly destroyed the city; only Lot and his family were spared.

The whole scene in Genesis 19 takes on near-comic proportions if Lot, on hearing the demand of the crowd that they wished to "get acquainted with" the men in his house, said, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. Now behold, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please let me bring them out to you and do to them as is good in your sight, only do nothing to these men . . ."

Ther are three distinct prohibitions about homosexuality in the bible:

Lev. 18:22
Lev. 20:13
Dt. 23:17-18


Also, the proscriptions against homosexual behavior have been repeated in the New Testament code (Rom 1:26-27; 1 Cor 6:9-11; 1 Tim 1:9-10).



As mentioned before it is interesting how lightly evangelicals have taken other proscriptions found in the same Old Testament Code, e.g.: rules against the eating of rabbit (Lev 11:26), oysters, clams, shrimp, and lobster (Lev 11:10ff), and rare steaks (Lev 17:10). Evangelicals do not picket or try to close down seafood restaurants nor do we keep kosher kitchens. We do not always order steaks "well-done." We eat pork and ham. The wearing of clothes made from interwoven linen and wool (Deut 22:11) does not seem to bother us at an. Evangelicals do not say, in accordance with these same laws of cultic purification (Lev 20:13), that those who practice homosexual activity should be executed as prescribed. Evangelicals do not demand the death penalty for the Jeane Dixons of this world (Lev 20:27) nor do we
"cut off" from among the people, as is demanded by this same Code, those who have intercourse with women during menstruation (Lev 20:18) and those who marry women who have been divorced (Lev 21:14). Evangelicals do not keep out of the pulpit those who are visually handicapped or lame or those "with a limb too long" (Lev 21:18ff).
 
Originally posted by Raijer

It then goes on to say that eating shrimp and lobster is also an "abomination".

It's amazing how many Christians seem to pick and choose what they're going to follow in the Bible, and what they'll conveniently ignore.

Yes, and it also says in the New Testement that things are only unclean if you make them unclean in your way of thinking (refering to the animal laws). I actully did not eat shrimp and lobster for a while after finding out about, but then i found that out about the animals.
 
Originally posted by Stapel
At best you can say a homosexual has the choice not to conduct homosexual acts.....

I'm not argueing against you Stapel.. but I would like to give some thought's about the statment...

Any discussion of homosexuality would be incomplete without addressing the difference between act and orientation. Many homosexuals will say, “I was born a homosexual—God made me this way; therefore, my thoughts, desires, and lifestyle should not be condemned.” If some people are born with a predisposition toward homosexual behavior, does that somehow make their homosexual lusts and behavior acceptable to God? Absolutely not!

The biblical doctrine of original sin teaches that all men are born with a sinful nature or disposition. The first man, Adam, was the covenant head and representative of the whole human race before God. When Adam sinned, the guilt and pollution of sin passed to the whole human race (Rom. 5:12, 17, 19). Every person (except Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit) is born with a sinful nature. It is wrong to say, “God made me a homosexual (or a liar, or a murderer),” because sin did not originate with God but with man (i.e., our forefather Adam).

The fact that all human beings are born with an orientation (or proclivity) toward sin does not excuse sinful lusts or behavior. The Bible says that all men are born liars (Ps. 58:3). Yet the Bible also says that lying is a sin (Ex. 20:16, Dt.5:20); it further says that liars will not enter the kingdom of God (Rev. 21:27). If some people are born with a proclivity toward theft, homosexuality, murder, bestiality, sadomasochism, mutilation etc., that does not somehow excuse their sinful behavior. The argument that orientation towards homosexuality somehow makes it acceptable to God could be used to excuse all sinful behavior. Such an argument destroys personal responsibility; it renders God’s law meaningless and salvation through Jesus Christ unnecessary. All men will be held responsible before God for every sinful thought, word and deed, regardless of one’s orientation. Blaming God for one’s sinful behavior may make the homosexual feel better, but it will be ineffective on the day of judgment, when all unrepentant homosexuals are cast into hell (1 Cor. 6:9-10, Rev. 21:27). Furthermore the Bible teaches that man cannot blame God for his sinful behavior, because God doesn’t tempt man. Man is drawn away by his own lust: “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (Jas. 1:13-15).

Some argue that homosexual acts are indeed immoral, but homosexual feelings and desires for some are inborn and therefore unavoidable and not sinful. The Bible does teach that it is not a sin to be tempted (Christ was tempted, yet He never committed sin, Heb. 2:18). What is sinful is when a person dwells upon that which tempts him, fantasizes and makes plans to engage in that sinful behavior. The Bible clearly teaches that it is not only a sin to commit evil acts, it is also a sin to have immoral desires, lusts and thoughts.

Jesus Christ forbade heterosexual lust in Matthew 5:27-29. Jesus said that when a man looks upon a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery with her in his heart (Mt. 5:28). The idea of condemning only the outward act but not the inward lust was a doctrine of the Pharisees; Christ strongly condemned such false teaching (Mt. 5:21-22, 15:19-20). The Apostle Paul in forbade ungodly fantasies, lusts, and evil desires (Col. 3:5). Paul said that Christians must sanctify (i.e., make holy) their very thoughts (Phil. 4:8). James said that if desires are not controlled, sin will follow (Jas. 4:1). Inward, homosexual lust is condemned in Romans 1:24, 26, 27. The prophet Isaiah said that repentance must extend to one’s “thoughts” as well as to one’s “way” (Isa. 55:7). Since the Bible condemns sinful lusts and sinful acts there can be no such thing as a Christian homosexual—or a Christian murderer or a Christian thief. If a homosexual becomes a Christian, he must put away both homosexual acts and thoughts; therefore, when he becomes a Christian, he ceases to be a homosexual. He may still be tempted at times but he refuses to dwell on, fantasize about, and commit such abominable deeds. “Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy; meditate on these things” (Phil. 4:8). “We should not lust after evil things as they also lusted” (1 Cor. 10:6).
 
WARNING: SPIRITUAL POST AHEAD. IF YOU DISLIKE ORGANIZED RELIGION, I SUGGEST YOU LEAVE NOW.

It is a disgrace to the rest of Christianity when one group decides to be totally insensitive to people's choices. And on the matter of seafood, God sent Peter a vision (book of acts IIRC) and said that no food is unclean just as no person is not without God's love. So by trying to "cure" homosexuals, these "Christians" directly contradict the New Testament. And heterosexuality has as many opportunities to sin. I believe that if two people love each other, are married, and have sex, it is not a sin, regardless of what gender they are.

Hakan, many of the verses you were quoting came from the Old Testament, the meaning of which was meant to keep the Israelites reasonably pure until God's plan for our salvation was fulfilled through them. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of many different sins; prostitution, murder, thievery, rape, fornication, etc.

OK, that's all I have time for for today. I'd love to see where this goes.
 
Originally posted by archer_007
Yes, and it also says in the New Testement that things are only unclean if you make them unclean in your way of thinking (refering to the animal laws).
You'll have to excuse me if I find your willingness to apply this thinking towards a Jumbo shrimp but NOT a fellow human being a tad unethical.

Originally posted by Hakan Eriksson
Homosexuality is condemned in Sodom: “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh [homosexuality], are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 7)

But the one I mention is the ONLY one that specifically defines what it means (i.e. "A man who lays with another man is an abomination.") The example you quote above, it was you who put the word in parenthetically. The "strange flesh" passage has been use by Christians to cover and discourage many sins (beatiality, incest, pedophilia, etc...), and can't be said to be refering directly to homosexuality per se.

Nonetheless, you definately seem to have a much better grasp of this stuff than I. Your first post said what I tried to much better. Bravo.

(Edited due to simultaneuous postings.)
 
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