Comments/Questions after 1st Cultural win

[whakojacko]

So I finally went for my first cultural win yesterday (ok on noble , Ive only won 1 prince game and wasnt going to test my luck yet) and although got it without too much hassle, it seemed a bit slow. Couple of questions after my first game though,
1. What civs/leaders do you think are best for a cultural win? I played China for the nice UB, and Qin for his solid (but not amazing) combo, ind for the culture wonder lust and Prot well because its his other trait but it does help with defending, which is obviously a low priority with such games. Louis also looks good with a better combo (Ind/Cre) but a weaker (although still good) UB. I could also see Phil leaders doing a good cultural game with all the GA pops, but I couldnt think of any leaders directly. Is HC any good for cultural wins? Ind/Fin is of course nice, and terraces (if built early) pretty much makes him cre. Of course you dont get the easy border pops, but as far as the cre bonus helping towards getting legendary, they are relatively similar (terraces would probably be built at the 3 cities so more than 100 turns later, and the 200 lost isnt too bad).
2. How do you set up youre cities? That game, I had my capital build all the GP wonders (stone & oracle 1st of course) and all the other biggies like AW & spiral even the Chicen Itza (hey I wanted the GP points), my second city build all the high cultural GA wonders (parthenon, notre dame, sistine, Taj etc), and my third city was my science city with GL U. Sankore, oxford, and hermitage to keep it up culturally (which it did well, with sistine & hermitage scientists give a good amt of culture). What setup do you use?
3. Tech paths, this is pretty huge. Going for stonehenge & oracle I obviously went for priesthood first (after BW/necessary worker techs), then went for music for the free GA and then let my GPs popped by my capital give me the other 3 late religions (oracle got me confusianism). But what about late game? Do you beeline democracy to get the nice free speech bonus, or go the electriciy / radio/ MM line to get the late game cultural wonders? People here seem to think they are useless, but those 50% bonuses were a godsend (I built 1 in each city), and the eiffel tower certainly wasnt required (as supposed to just building broadcast towers in the 3 cities) but was nice.
4. What time do you switch to 100% culture? I got to physics (for the free GS) and biology (for lots more artists) before I switched, and cant help but feel that was too late (I switched at ~1810 and won ~1870). Do you switch after getting all the late religious techs?
5. Is SE (with lots of artists) better than CE? It seemed obvious during the game, but now am not so sure. With mature cottages, 100% culture coming from all though cottages seems better than the +1GA (about) per square instead (farmed with bio), although you would then miss out on sistine as well as all the GAs.
6. Least important, but around what years do you get your cultural wins?
7. Any other tips/ hints for getting good cultural wins?

 

[Cam_H]

whakojacko,

Congratulations on your win.

Like all things Civ4 - there's multiple ways of tackling things - and 'cookie cutter' strategies can't always be relied on.

I can outline how I would respond to your questions, but I'm involved with a Cultural succession game that's really struggling with a 'split personality' at how to go about winning - focus on : A big religious push? Culture slider? Great Artist Farm? Decimate neighbours and fix the cultural objective at the end, or walk the diplomatic (more passive) path and hope that a mid-sized empire will get you through? etc etc.

1. I lean towards Spiritual leaders for this victory type, with Ramesses and Gandhi (Warlords) probably my pick of them. Qin Shi Huang and Huayna Capac, as you have noted, are strong contenders. To some extent it is contingent upon the approach you take, and the relative importance of the tools that you choose to use. I'm likely to be switching civics a lot, and building a heap of Temples, so Spiritual suits my play-style.

2. Wonder-wise I'll consider The Pyramids if going with an Industrial leader and / or have access to Stone. The Parthenon, The Sistine Chapel, and The Taj Mahal are usually the only other World Wonders that I attempt. I've found that the capital, a farm (National Epic + Globe Theatre), and another strong 'hybrid'-type city (Hermitage) usually end up being my three legendaries.

3. Free Speech stems from Liberalism (not Democracy). Every game is different, but I'll often go (roughly) after the following key tech's: Bronze > Monotheism > Alphabet > Theology > Literature > Liberalism > Nationalism > Chemistry and/or Military Tradition, with lightbulbs and tech' trades (e.g. Drama) along the way. I'll try not to trade away Paper, Education, or Philosophy if the Liberalism slingshot is still available.

4. I have lately stopped at Chemistry for Grenadiers. It all depends on your diplomatic position. If your committed to this victory type, yet have insufficient religious spread, then bee-lining Mass Media might be your best option allowing you to back-trade better technologies such as Assembly Line.

5. I try to specialise two cities to act as farms up to Liberalism, and then focus on a Great Artist farm for the rest of the game while running more of a Cottage-based economy.

6. Late 1700's - 1800's. Depends upon the difficulty and starting terrain.

7. It seems as though you've done some reading anyway, but there are some articles in The War Academy. There are several Cultural games in the Succession Game forum that may well worth be following. I guess that I learned early on that while a totally peaceful victory is possible, that generally you'll get attacked in the Industrial Age by a distant tribe who will send a mediocre and yet sometimes very damaging invasion force - so don't let your military go completely 'to the dogs'. One of the players in the abovementioned succession game I'm involved with likes researching Drama and slingshotting Music with a self-raised Great Artist if the Free Artist from Music is still available.

To repeat - these are just my 'general' approaches. I'm not always right, and others may have different strategies that may be better depending upon the circumstance. As noted at the top of my post, one approach is to warmonger your way to a dominant position before directing a ton of effort to the victory objective, which is miles from my more 'meek and humble' approach.

Well done again on your win!

 

[InFlux5]

Cam,

Why would warmongering to a dominant position help? By keeping your opponents from invading in the Industrial age?

My biggest problem with cultural is deciding when to go for it. Once I make the decision and start spamming temples/cathedrals, I just feel like it's going way too slow.

Closely related is the issue of getting a cultural win when you're isolated and couldn't grab 3 religions. How to proceed if you only have 1 religion? or none?

 

[madscientist]

I have won several cultural victories. Any leader can work provided you get religions (you do not need to found them) but some are better. All ind, phil work well. I plat Prince level, huge maps, marathon speed and have won with Hatshepsut/Louis/Roosevelt/Agustus/Qin/Hyuana. I shoot for at least 8 cities, usually 12. Generally I always build three good cities and decide then if cultural is an option. Isolated continants are an invitation, in the middle of a continant after building the great wall for some peace, an easily protected penninsula or only on friendly neighbor helps. Do not neglect your army, wipe out early/close threats (Shaka/Monty/Kahns/Isabella). I research up to mass media (broadcats towers/late wonders) and industrialization (tanks/battleships), and turn the culture slider to 100%.

 

[Cam_H]

Influx,

Why would warmongering to a dominant position help? By keeping your opponents from invading in the Industrial age?

You've pretty well answered the question. A large empire is simply going to outperform a mid-sized one once you've got your commercial bases covered. More commerce, more production, more power. By laying some groundwork for a Cultural win in the early game (e.g. set up the elements for your Theology and Philosophy slingshots) while doing a bit of warmongering > vassalising will put you in a better spot for the second half of the game where you can still build Missionaries and Temples yet still have enough other cities working on commercial and military improvements. Even if you go the more amicable diplomatic route, with a larger empire you'll have more resources and technology to trade with.

My biggest problem with cultural is deciding when to go for it. Once I make the decision and start spamming temples/cathedrals, I just feel like it's going way too slow.

Closely related is the issue of getting a cultural win when you're isolated and couldn't grab 3 religions. How to proceed if you only have 1 religion? or none?

That is a tough one. Assuming that you are playing a 'normal' game and not some peculiar variant ...

... Religions would flow pretty swiftly across the seas once you established contacts with other nations into your 'faithless' cities, but if you founded and spread only one religion, then you'd need to do some work, and that would probably involve invading someone and sending Missionaries back home. Some would suggest just keep producing cities with no religion until something new spreads, and then start churning out Missionaries of these 'foreign' faiths.

Cottages, a dedicated Great Scientist > Great Artist farm, and a Liberalism bee-line for Free Speech > Nationalism or Astonomy slingshot could probably get you there for a religion-free game, but it would be hard work if you're playing on your 'normal' level of difficulty. I'm sure somewhere out there, there's a succession game that's had a zero religion isolated start cultural variant!

 

[futurehermit]

My 2 cents, keeping in mind I don't normally go for cultural. I have won ca. 1800AD cultural on monarch though (with Gandhi).

I think leaders with spiritual are great. Cultural, industrious, financial, creative, philosophical are also all good. Any combination there is fine.

How I go about it:

I try and found 3 religions myself. If any others spread to me that is a bonus. In my game I played as Gandhi. I founded hinduism in my capital and judaism in my second city. I chopped out stonehenge/oracle in my 2nd city and used the GP on theology to found christianity. I was trying to get it in my 3rd city, but it went in my second as well. Oh well. From there I went for a few more prophets for the shrines and then switched to artist production. Early artists were settled and later ones went for culture bombs in my lowest-culture producing city.

I targeted sistine chapel (easy because I lightbulbed theology) for the extra culture on specialists (artists mainly). Other wonders, when I could get them fairly easily, were built as well. The wonders went in my 3 legendary cities, never outside them.

I cottaged my legendary cities like crazy, but in retrospect, I think that might not be the best way to go. I think you could have one uber commerce city as one legendary city that gets culture from the slider eventually; one uber production city that gets culture from wonders, and your gpfarm that gets culture from artist specialists powered up by the sistine chapel. Culture bomb or settle artists in your lowest-culture city.

Of course temples in all cities and cathedrals in your legendary cities.

I shut down research after democracy. I wanted emancipation and the statue of liberty. Beyond that I don't think any techs are needed although some people like to tech through mass media. I'm not sure which is the better approach, but I figured the earlier I slapped the culture slider at 100% the better off I'd be.

 

[madscientist]

I shut down research after democracy. I wanted emancipation and the statue of liberty. Beyond that I don't think any techs are needed although some people like to tech through mass media. I'm not sure which is the better approach, but I figured the earlier I slapped the culture slider at 100% the better off I'd be.

It is nearve wracking when you have stopped research and start seeing infantry and artillery in the AI cities though. My biggest problem is cultural victories end up boring as I wait for the culture meter to click away, hence another reason I go to industrialization/mass media, just to mix things up. It will take longer but you will be more assured a victory, especially if another AI agressively pursues the space victory. Cottage spamming helps, 7 commerce on each tile with maybe 300-400% modifiers that's 21-28 culture points per city. Also building an airport (AI's will trade flight for industrialization or radio) and running free trade helps with the trade routes (8-12 commerce per route). Do not run mercantilism, you will get more culture from the foreign trade route than the lone free artist. Also democracy is not really needed unless you want the statue of liberty (not too good on isolated starts or archeopolegos) as you most likely want caste system, will not be running universal sufferage, and the culture meter overcomes the unhappiness for rivals running democracy. That said I always research Democracy for cultural wins!!!!

 

[budweiser]

Even on monarch you can often get hinduism and budism both if you are india. The trick is you research hinduism first and then budism while you allow your capitol to grow. I'd say it works 20-30% of the time, and I often do it just when I want to play out that scenario. I bet any civ that starts with mysticism can do it.

Beyond that, 3 religions really isnt too hard if you know how. What you do is research or oracle COL, while you go for writing, lit and music. Usually get writing, then research for COL instead of monarchy. A great scientist can light buld philo and your free artist which comes with music can light bulb divine right later on. That may be a partial light buld that you finish researching. You just have to research drama on your own, but it doesnt take long. The other thing is if you build stonehenge, you can often lightbulb Christianity with the great prophet. Plenty of ways to get more than one religion first.

 

[InFlux5]

My preferred method is Poly -> Mono and build Stonehenge, then use the GP for Theology.

Of course, I almost never go for a religion right away. I won't know if I'm going for Cultural until after I have a tech or two anyway, and if I'm not then an early religion is a waste of time in my view.

When I do decide to go Cultural I usually try to light-bulb Philosophy and Theology, then try to pick up Divine Right. But in reality I hope that religion will spread from someone else.

 

[futurehermit]

It is nearve wracking when you have stopped research and start seeing infantry and artillery in the AI cities though. My biggest problem is cultural victories end up boring as I wait for the culture meter to click away, hence another reason I go to industrialization/mass media, just to mix things up. It will take longer but you will be more assured a victory, especially if another AI agressively pursues the space victory. Cottage spamming helps, 7 commerce on each tile with maybe 300-400% modifiers that's 21-28 culture points per city. Also building an airport (AI's will trade flight for industrialization or radio) and running free trade helps with the trade routes (8-12 commerce per route). Do not run mercantilism, you will get more culture from the foreign trade route than the lone free artist. Also democracy is not really needed unless you want the statue of liberty (not too good on isolated starts or archeopolegos) as you most likely want caste system, will not be running universal sufferage, and the culture meter overcomes the unhappiness for rivals running democracy. That said I always research Democracy for cultural wins!!!!

Diplomacy is your best defence against aggressors. Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. It's also not a good idea to try for cultural if you are on a continent with shaka, monty, and napoleon You want peaceful neighbours, or aggressors you can befriend early.

Also, democracy is for universal sufferage temporarily to rush-buy temples/cathedrals/culture buildings that you still have to produce. You don't have to stay in US forever, but it is nice temporarily. I also like the SoL.

 

[madscientist]

Diplomacy is your best defence against aggressors. Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. It's also not a good idea to try for cultural if you are on a continent with shaka, monty, and napoleon You want peaceful neighbours, or aggressors you can befriend early.

Until your friends want you to go to war with them!! Yes diplomacy works well, Some artillery/Tanks/infantry is even better. You get more form a loaded gun and a kind work than just a kind word!!!

Also, democracy is for universal sufferage temporarily to rush-buy temples/cathedrals/culture buildings that you still have to produce. You don't have to stay in US forever, but it is nice temporarily. I also like the SoL.

Ahh, but a good cultural win usually goes with the pyramids (+10 culture) from teching or GE (GW points) so you would not need democracy. If you miss the pyramids then you could research it. I agree about the SoL.

 

[madscientist]

Pyramids whould be from building, not teching. You get the idea though.

 

[InFlux5]

Just to follow on what futurehermit said, one of the best things to remember about diplomacy is that war-mongering civs will love you if you share in their military struggle.

So for example, say Alexander and Catherine are on another landmass. You know Alexander is a back-stabber, so you try to court Catherine, but she won't warm to you.

Lo and behold, Alex declares war on Catherine. The best thing to do at this point would be to follow suit. You will make a great friend in Alex, and you won't have to do much but keep some Frigates patrolling your shores.

(Granted, non-backstabbing civs are preferrable to have as friends. But when you are desperate, sharing in a military struggle can be the best way to stave off attack. Kind of ironic when you think about it.)

 

[futurehermit]

Pyramids are situational though, of course. If I had the pyramids though then I would probably shut down research at liberalism while lightbulbing printing press.

Some people win cultural with only warriors for defence...on deity!!! Diplomacy really is your best friend, especially if you are going to shut down research post-liberalism.

If they ask you to go to war, you can decline. A couple - modifiers aren't enough to overcome all the + modifiers you should have...

 

[madscientist]

Still, I wouldn't care about Cathy's Al's opinion of me if I a few dozen tanks, and they likely could have destroyers/transports before I get the cultural victory.

Yes I agree about the - modifiers compared with the +. But things can change fast. An AI that I refuse to help in war will usually ask me soon the stop trading with someone else, adding another - modifier or enraging the other CIV.

I have found diplomacy works best two ways, 1) keep other civs at each other throats by bribing them to fight one another (generally I need techs to do this so stopping at democracy will terminate this option). Or 2) building a large army myself.

Defensive pacts work if I have a very stronge sugar daddy who an enemy would have to through first.

Also culture victories require free speech, which means no + diplomacy from the buearocracy/vassalage/nationalism lovers, washington is the only free speech lover and he never switches to it. Alot of AI's switch to free religion also, so there that goes. Touch to maintain really longtime diplomatic ties.

I always assumed the pyramids were a given for cultural victoires, I haven't won or tried without them.

 

[futurehermit]

My Gandhi 1800AD win I didn't have pyramids. Diplomacy is just about keeping the peace. So you make decisions: If declaring war on someone would result in your annihilation you say no. If they are overseas and don't have galleons yet then you can afford it.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

The most fun culture win approach is via wonders. Louis is good for this. Keep building wonders in three cities. Still spread religions, but don't stop research, instead go for the late game culture wonders - mass media etc.

Its not much slower than setting 100% culture and its much safer. You can usually get a respectable score too - just because your culture cities are busy getting culture doesn't mean the rest of your cities can't go to war and capture territory for you. Makes the game more fun than just clicking ENTER for 50 turns while hoping the AI don't send their artillery and infantry against you.

 

[jason77024]

Question for all the commenters:

Other than games where you say "Hey, I think I'll play a culture game" before starting, how often do you go for a culture win? More specifically, how often do you go that route when not 'required' to by the geography (e.g. an isolated start, continents map?).

I ask this because most culture-win guides encourage 9-ish cities, and the sooner the better to get those points ticking over.

Well if you're going to do that, why not go the domination route - unless the map dictates otherwise? (Esp. if you have Huayna, whom I saw mentioned above.)

So if all (or at least 64%!) of your opponents are fairly 'getable,' why go for the culture win? Is it just because you're sick of that plant-the-flag movie? At what point do you look at your game and say "Well, this looks like a culture win" or the like?

My background: I am OK but far from great at this game. I play , mostly Prince/Epic/Std size, posting 100-110K 1300-ish domination wins lately (incl. some non-warmongers like Fred & Louis), plus one spiffy win with Cyrus in 1148. I mostly get my butt kicked at Monarch, though I've got a pretty good game going now with Hattie despite not finding horses. (UPDATE: Finally built a horse city around 1000AD, domination win in 154x with 107K pts.)

I'd like to try a culture game, but obviously have no feel for knowing when that's the right option, so all advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Jason

 

[whakojacko]

Thanks for all the replies
So I had totally forgotten about cathedrals that game . How many do you end up building in each of your 3 big cultural cities?
Also, why is spiritual such a popular trait? The half price temples as obvious great, but it doesnt seem like youll be switching civics very much, so once you hit representation/free speech/caste system/mercantilism (or maybe FM)/Pacifism it doesnt seem like you would be changing

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Try playing a few HOF gauntlets, they dictate the winning condition (didn't get a win with GMinor 21 though). It means you have to make a plan from turn 1.

EDIT: You forgot about cathedrals for a cultural win!? Hmm... That's nearly as bad as forgetting to switch to free speech. 9 cities standard map is normally the rule so you can build cathedrals of all religions in your legendary cities.