Double post.
'commies'
- Thread starter Cecasander
- Start date
gr8ful wes
Deity
Originally posted by T5812
Thanks... I guess...
No offence, but just shouting "BS!!!" to everything i say, isnt really argumentation. If you could specify what part of my teory that is bs, and why it is bs, i would be very pleased.
no need, it seems your not going to be able to retort anyway
and thats no BS.
Be sure Furry Spatula does. He has first-hand experience with the topic, living now in what 100 years ago would be considered a socialist utopia. He's just afraid of taking this progress too far, too fast, afraid of letting democracy in Canada slip as we push steadily onward to our own unique utopia. His fears aren't idle ones.
Originally posted by MummyMan
Ever read 1984? (or have seen the movie) That alone makes me think twice about believing that communism is a good thing.
Yeah...
... and about cameras... and about computers...
They are ALL evil.
Come´on, it's not really an argument.
Dr Alimentado
Prince
Originally posted by FredLC
Wanna talk about bad experiences?
During the military dictatorships in South America, my uncle was captured and tortured severily by the government.
A government that took pride of being capitalistic and that had the fight against communism as one of it's major goals, to the point of invading student's houses to check if the books they were studying were "subversive", planting spies in schools and killing artists and thinkers.
Now, I'm not bashing either capitalism OR communism.
However, when I see people presenting this question as communism = dictatorship, capitalism = freedom, I can only laugh at their naivety. Dictatorship, and it's horrors, are not privilege of either system.
The bad experience communism (socialism) offered to the countries that tried it has showed only that imposing a philosophy that relies on the enhancement of the human spirit by armed resolution is sillyness. The term "revolution of the proletarian" is an allegory that indicate a moment when the labor class would acknowledge it's power and learn how to use it ... not an invitation to decaptate Czars.
If one day communism will come, it will be under natural development, not by an aggressive taking over conducted by ruthless men such as Lenin and Stalin. It's a pity that their "fac-símile" of communism has really branded it as something bad in the heads of so many people.
Was communism, as experienced, good? Of course not. No honest man can deny that.
However, to demonize a philosophy that searches for justice and equality, that has such elevated goals as it's core, is unfair.
Is communism impossible because it does not fit the human's spirit? That may be. Maybe we are too primitive to behave in a way that could allow us to hope having a system that bases itself in sharing instead of owning.
However, humanity has enhanced in many ways through the centuries. Things that we accept today as common sense, like caring for the environment, being good to animals, respecting the rights of other people and other nations, engaging war only as the last option and never as the aggressor, among many other, all those things would sound like an alien dream to a person of, say, the 17th century.
As a humanist, I believe that one day - not in my lifetime, but one day - humanity will be better than it is now, so the human nature will never again be a credible argument against the implementation of communism.
Maybe time will prove me wrong.
But will anyone feel victorious if it does?
Regards.
I don't normally quote long posts and then make a brief comment but I think this post deserves it! Fred, that is without doubt the best post in this thread (and one of the best OT threads ever IMHO). Thank-you.
Everyone else, read Fred's post again. He's about the only one talking sense in here.
ecadre wrote:
I said that Iwasn't going to come back at each point made by other contributers, but I couldn't resist this one.
quote:
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Originally posted by Vrylakas
Harold J. Laski, the eminent 1940s British communist also talked of trashing the Church of England.
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Harold Laski a communist ??!!!???!!!
You really have to do better than this. If that is really the level of your knowledge then I suppose it explains all of your other flights of fantasy.
In communist Poland I had to read the book, Harold J. Laski On the Communist Manifesto, in which Laski "critiques" (i.e., largely agrees with) the Manifesto. Fabian by name perhaps, but he was touted by communist authorities as an ideological brother and his book certainly seemed to underscore that point.
"Flights of fancy?" - Oh - so someone who was born into and raised in a communist society, has degrees in history and anthropology with years of study in both Eastern European and Western universities, and who is married to a person in similar circumstances will know less than you, a young Westerner who has probably never set foot in a communist country and who has developed his views in the comfort of a modern, Western home? Uh huh. You must indeed be brilliant, being such a scholar who can go against convention and ignore evidence from those who experienced a phenomenon first-hand! No need for primary resources for those such as yourself! Secondary, ideologically "correct" ones will do (rather like the Medieval church). I'm not the only one on these boards with such experiences; I suspect the other just got tired of arguing with people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Were that I were so wise.
I'm not going to even try to answer every point made in other posts, other than to say that some people still haven't actually bothered read and question things for themselves.
This is a sure sign of someone who either does not know or is unwilling to endanger their own sacred views by exposing them to others'.
I said that Iwasn't going to come back at each point made by other contributers, but I couldn't resist this one.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vrylakas
Harold J. Laski, the eminent 1940s British communist also talked of trashing the Church of England.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harold Laski a communist ??!!!???!!!
You really have to do better than this. If that is really the level of your knowledge then I suppose it explains all of your other flights of fantasy.
In communist Poland I had to read the book, Harold J. Laski On the Communist Manifesto, in which Laski "critiques" (i.e., largely agrees with) the Manifesto. Fabian by name perhaps, but he was touted by communist authorities as an ideological brother and his book certainly seemed to underscore that point.
"Flights of fancy?" - Oh - so someone who was born into and raised in a communist society, has degrees in history and anthropology with years of study in both Eastern European and Western universities, and who is married to a person in similar circumstances will know less than you, a young Westerner who has probably never set foot in a communist country and who has developed his views in the comfort of a modern, Western home? Uh huh. You must indeed be brilliant, being such a scholar who can go against convention and ignore evidence from those who experienced a phenomenon first-hand! No need for primary resources for those such as yourself! Secondary, ideologically "correct" ones will do (rather like the Medieval church). I'm not the only one on these boards with such experiences; I suspect the other just got tired of arguing with people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Were that I were so wise.
I'm not going to even try to answer every point made in other posts, other than to say that some people still haven't actually bothered read and question things for themselves.
This is a sure sign of someone who either does not know or is unwilling to endanger their own sacred views by exposing them to others'.
metalhead
Angry Bartender
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2002
- Messages
- 8,031
You haven't even countered the fundamental argument put forth by me and others against Communism, because there is no counter-argument. Communism stifles freedom much more than Capitalist Democracies do, and there is no way to create equality among a species that is inherently unequal other than through force.
A few links.
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk]Communist Party of Britain[/url] - gosh, a Communist Party website, one might even find out what Communists are actually saying and believe.
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=71]Question everything[/url] - the start of ANY theoretical and scientific analysis.
The following articles deal with the "communists killed more people than the nazis" propaganda (with some comments about what we really think about Stalin etc mostly in article 3)
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=49]The New Wave of Anti-Communism: Part 1[/url]
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=50]The New Wave of Anti-Communism: Part 2[/url]
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=51]The New Wave of Anti-Communism: Part 3[/url]
Three articles for those who were sadly incapable of doing a search on religion at the Communist Party of Britain's website.
There is quite a debate about religion, and there always has been. Geof Bottoms, by the way is a Vicar, and a member of the Communist Party. There are others like him.
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=32]Marxism and religion debate: Part 1[/url]
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=33]Marxism and religion debate: Part 2[/url]
* [url http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=34]Marxism and religion debate: Part 3[/url]
That's all for now folks
How about telling us what YOU think? I come to this forum to read the opinions of the posters - why not offer some of yours instead of simply directing us to the opinions of others?
Sure. Intravenous chocolate pudding is worse than eating any tapioca pudding of choice. No contest. But how about "Capitalist" unmodified by "Democracies", metalhead?
Capitalism is the default economic system in the absence of public control. It naturally thrives in unambitious democracies.
Fred: Yes, there are dictatorships that are capitalistics. A cousin of my father was killed during the military rule.
However, there are Capitalistic countrys that are democracys. But ALL communist countrys were dictatorships. Coincidence? Hardly.
The only way a society can be communist is by an imposition of the ruling elite.
I to believe that better days will come. But not days like those predicted by Marx and Engels.
However, there are Capitalistic countrys that are democracys. But ALL communist countrys were dictatorships. Coincidence? Hardly.
The only way a society can be communist is by an imposition of the ruling elite.
I to believe that better days will come. But not days like those predicted by Marx and Engels.
anonymous4401
Prince
Except your college professor, who'll fail you if you disagree with his political convictions.
Greadius
:yeah:
Why? The pursuit of these policies as the communist ideal defines them will ALWAYS result in these types of states.
That is why we didn't feel the need to pre-face 'communist' with dictatorship, its the same thing. Your uncle suffered under a dictatorship, my uncle (and the rest of my family) suffered under a dictatorship; the difference is that people here aren't advocating trying the type of dictatorship your uncle suffered under again.
Make it sound like its a good thing.
You fall into that trap again... we are too primitive, or is the system, the ideal, too incompatible. It takes a great deal of fatih in a failed system to say "Humans aren't ready", because its essentially saying that the system isn't broken, its the people.
Well, what are we more capable, more likely to change: a system or humanity?
But not if people won't accept the system is flawed.
Yep.
If humans are perfect, communism is going to look mighty silly and unnecessary. But wheres the intellectual exercise? If its outside your lifetime, you just add to the danger of the idealistic, naive, and misguided groups that would make it happen now, and would live in a state that would resemble all the other attempts we've seen.
I'd love to enter another battle of posts with you, Greadius.
But this time, I lack the time and patience.
Maybe next time, ok?
Regards.
But this time, I lack the time and patience.
Maybe next time, ok?
Regards
.
Thanks, my good Dr...
A few people have already showed their disagreement with this, but hey, we can't please both the greeks and Trojans. I've seen a little misunderstandings as for what I meant, but I've been to this discussions for too long and I already know when it's worth to carry on and when it isn't.
At least you agrees with what I meant. So I feel that my job here is done.
Beleza, Luiz?
Cara, eu não falei em marxismo. Eu usei "comunismo" de uma forma um pouco liberal. Acho que se ele vier a se desenvolver, não vai ser por conflito, mas de uma maneira natural, em que um dia as pessoas vão se surpreender ao perceber que estão vivendo algo que lembra muito a proposta comunista.
Por que os comunismo descambaram para ditaduras? Realmente não é coincidência... mas também não é uma falta latente. Na minha opinião, tem a ver com o fato de que eles foram implementados com rupturas. Destruiu-se o sistema velho, implantou-se o novo.
Só que economia é complexa demais para ser tratada assim. Não é para menos que deu no que deu.
Regards
.
You did observe that both OT moderators have posted in this thread.
Furry Spatula
...
o damn, don't say that. That brings back bad memories of my past 2 semesters. One bad class out of 4 for my past 2 semesters in University. My GPA wouldn't have gone down .25 if the marking was fair. But I'll survive. I'm taking my science classes next semester, there isn't subjectivity as to if 1+1=2.
And Fred. I see your point and i didn't mean to come across that way (ie blindly saying that democracies and capitalist countries never turn bad) I know that it happens. However, i was just saying that looking at %ages of countries that succesfully implemented communism and didn't have it deteriorate, it is considerably lower that capitalist democracies, 0% compared with something above 0
.And with Question Everything. That is definatly a major part in keeping your freedom. One problem i see with communism is that the way it was described by Marx it requires a violent revolution which means that there is an interim dictatorship durring the civil war. With dictatorships the freedom to question is put on hold. Once it goes on hold the government is free to become as corrupt as it wants and oppressive without having to worry about loosing its power untill it decides to give the freedom to question everything back to the people.
John Wayne USA
Duke says 'Lets Roll!'
Communism is essentially Un American. We be seeing that Communism or if its not Communism has killed millions of people throughout the world and put in terror for so many places.
Those capitalist dictators like in Chile were bad too but they were defending the country from Communists who fooled the people into electing them because they knew what was going to happen next.
Sometimes it is necessary for the US to support such dictators in some countries......Am I happy about it ? No.
Do I feel it was necessary? Yes
Did it work out in the long run? Yes
Will I apologize for it? Of course not. We were defending freedom. Capitalism is freedom.
As for George Orwell, he was a Socialist that fought for the communists in the War to Liberate Spain or the Spanish Civil War. I dont read anything from pro-Communists, sorry.
Communism is no doubt the worst horror of the 20th century and is guilty of the greatest genocide of mankind. Dont believe me? Go to China.
Those capitalist dictators like in Chile were bad too but they were defending the country from Communists who fooled the people into electing them because they knew what was going to happen next.
Sometimes it is necessary for the US to support such dictators in some countries......Am I happy about it ? No.
Do I feel it was necessary? Yes
Did it work out in the long run? Yes
Will I apologize for it? Of course not. We were defending freedom. Capitalism is freedom.
As for George Orwell, he was a Socialist that fought for the communists in the War to Liberate Spain or the Spanish Civil War. I dont read anything from pro-Communists, sorry.
Communism is no doubt the worst horror of the 20th century and is guilty of the greatest genocide of mankind. Dont believe me? Go to China.
Furry Spatula
...
LOL please stop talking, your doing more harm than good. Yes Orwell was a Communist. He makes for a very good person to read because of that. 1984 for instance isn't a pro communist book. I'm assuming you started reading Orwell's biography and you stopped before you found out he wasn't very happy with communism and was turned away from it and took a critical stance to it. He was involved greatly with communism and later turned away from it. He critiqued it greatly in his books Animal Farm and 1984. Animal farm was his depiction of the Russian Revolution and 1984 is what he predicted as a Communist state in the year 1984.
And honestly, how can you even try to argue a point if you don't read anything at all from the other side. I am able to debate about communism as I have read the works of Marx and co. I have also read some of the links that ecadre put up. If you know only one side of something you realy know nothing. You have no clue what is better. Expand your horizons and come up with your own answers.
Edit: I wont even touch on the other stuff as that is pure drivel. Setting up brutal dictatorships is not a way to combat Communism. As the establishing of a communist state would devolve into the same thing in the same ammount of time. And after the economy and government collapsed the country would switch to something else and would be left in shambles anyway.
don't feel like getting involved in this one, i'm too tired :yawn:
Anywho, got one question for all of you commie lovin really cool guys out there Is Vietnam still a communists state? or have the changed into a more democratic nation?
Anywho, got one question for all of you commie lovin really cool guys out there
Is Vietnam still a communists state? or have the changed into a more democratic nation?Similar threads
