'commies'

[Jelciakajo]

Originally posted by Pillager
Except for human nature, of course.

I keep hearing this, but I've never understood the arguement, because it can't explain socialists.
Some people would be more than happy to have equality, suggesting that the desire to live highly at the expense of others is a result of socialization rather than an innate human trait.

 

[stormerne]

The problem is not so much communism as totalitarianism. In other words, centralized control by an autocratic authority or the political concept that all citizens should be totally subject to an absolute state authority.

In practice, most communist regimes are totalitarian. BUT a right wing dictatorship is also usually totalitarian. Either way is an imposition on individual freedom.

However, there is plenty of "totalitarianism by stealth" in freedom loving capitalist countries like the US. This I particularly hate because it's insidious and so often pompously self-righteous. What is it? It's when there is intense social pressure to conform to one particular so-called viewpoint of freedom, and where the mob's view of "what freedom is" is imposed on the thinking minority. This sucks too, but look around you and I guarantee you won't have far to go to spot this going on.

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by Adebisi


I went into a Swedish (it's not Norway, but close ) forum for socialists and picked some quotes. (Translated by me)


So you can judge for yourselves.

Wow, that is the scariest thing I've ever heard. As an American Jew who lost 13 relatives in the Holocaust, that is a little too much to handle. I'm so sick and tired of Anti-Semitism.

One of my cousins is pretty liberal (probably not commie so, but liberal) and wished to march in those anti-war rallies, but couldn't bring himself to. He couldn't do it, knowing that he would probably be standing next to someone who wanted him dead. And not just him, but the 6 million in Israel and the 10 million of us elsewhere.

It hurts the liberal/commie case when they are against war, but approve of merciless suicide attacks against unarmed civilians (of any kind).

No offense to Europe...I love Europe...but the rising tide of Anti-Semitism there is a horrible thing, and it needs to be recognized.

Getting back to the topic, I don't like communism because it restricts my freedoms and my life. I want my life to be about choices. I'd rather have the CHANCE to succeed, even if I didn't. Striving for that goal makes a people sooo much more productive. Thomas Jefferson puts it best in the preample to the Declaration of Independence when he says that we are endowed with the certain unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. When he mentions equality, one must understand that this certainly does not mean economic equality, but equality under the law.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by ComradeDavo

People always focus on the negative factors of human nature, overlooking the fact that many people are kind and caring, and it is in their nature to be so.

Of course, many people are kind and caring, and it certainly is not as simple as saying we're all bastards, get used to it. Rather that in an early Communist society, there would be ample opportunity for those with fewer scruples to take advantage of it and move towards grabbing power, domination, influence, call it what you will. And, unfortunately, they will prevail. There will always be a Napoleon, who will see his opportunity and bang, the communist ideals go up in flames.

It'd be nice if the world were solely about rewarding those who were the most caring and the nicest, but it isn't and it never will be because there will always be someone who will take advantage.

 

[Thadlerian]

Originally posted by T5812


Greed is not a part of human nature. People can live without greed. Some believe, that when all the problems of capitalism (poverty, unequality etc.) is gone, people will not be hatefull and greedy,. because those bad emotions are a product of capitalism.

This discussion is getting sort of metaphysical, but I agree with you. Like 90-95% of the world's population are hard workers. Those last percents cannot be claimed to represent the whole human race.
When the society is a tough place to live, and money makes you special, there will be greed. When survival is no longer depending on being able to aquire money by any possible mean, there is no reason greed should continue existing.
Greed is not constant. It has its roots somewhere.

 

[Thadlerian]

Originally posted by Pillager
It'd be nice if the world were solely about rewarding those who were the most caring and the nicest, but it isn't and it never will be because there will always be someone who will take advantage.

That's right. It's a fact that someone will take advantage when possible. And as long as most other people questionlessly accept it, there is no mean of getting rid of it.

 

[luiz]

Pillager is right.
And I say more. If the people in a democratic capitalist country wnats to, they can vote in a communist party. but evem if the people in a communist country wants to, they can NEVER vote outside the party.
And please dont insult me by saying that I need to read marxist literature. i've read the Communist Manisfesto and Das Kapital. Marx stated clearly that he believed that a DICTATORSHIP of the proletarians needed to be installed at least for some time. So Marx didnt think Democracy is essencial. Furthermore, ALL of Marxs prediction failed. He said the situation of workers in industrialised countrys would get worse and worse. Well, they didnt. he predicted that the Revolution would happen first in a highly developped country(Germany or England, according to him). Well, it happened in semi-feudal Russia. Marx was not a brilliant economist.

ComradeDavo: Do you have any idea of how much INNOCENT people Ernesto Guevara killed? Does any ideology justify murder?

 

[Greadius]

Question to people who still use the pre-Soviet dictionary defintion of Marxism's view of Communism to the common use word that was used in regimes throughout the 20th century (still used in North Korea and Cuba) that described their style of government: Do you still insist the term 'gay' means happy or have you given way to the colloquial use of that too?

Using Forest Gump wisdom here, Communism is as communism does. Well, what has communism done, and reasons to fear & loath become apparent quickly.

From my perspective, hatred of communism is as much personal as ideological. I have countless stories of the misery it inflicted upon the family, and the peripheral problems passed on to me. On the other hand, if not for the misery communism inflicted on eastern Europe my parents would probably not have come here, and I wouldn't be an American.

I suppose I just reiterate the 'propoganda' that causes Americans to blindly believe it is evil everytime I share these stories, which I do frequently.

Originally posted by T5812
Second of all, my ignorant friends, we socialist's and communist's have no hate for anyone other than facist capitalist pigs.

Thats me

Originally posted by T5812
There have never been a communist state. Many have tried, and even more have said that they tried, but it is a fact that, and i quote Civ3, "None have ever been able tio create the utopia that Marx and Engels "invented".". Stalin was a stalinist. That kinda resembles Machiavellism. Other have been neo-communist, some of those are The People's Republic of China, and Cuba.

Well nobody has been able to create a society that Adam Smith or Milton Friedman invisioned either, but you don't see me claiming that they aren't 'really' capitalist because all policy recommendations don't work exactly as planned. Heck, capitalism is meant to be perfect outcome too, and since the world isn't perfect, its not REALLY capitalism and none of the problems in the world are the responsibility of capitalism :crazyeyes:
Works both ways, don't it?

Those countries TRIED communism and it failed. If I were to ask you to take a plot of land in Wyoming and create communist state, you would follow many of the same steps they took.

I don't see the point of pining to the ideals of communism if they conflict with human nature. What is the point of a system to govern people if its incompatible with people? That is like creating the perfect operating system, but it doesn't work on any computers.

 

[andrewgprv]

I don't see what people get so worked up about.

As a voter I'd never vote for a communist candidate because the times communism has been tried it has had negative consequences. Versus Capatlaism which has proved to have it's share of negative consequences but with much greater positive results.

Now if some country wants to be daring and try communism go ahead, and if they succeed at making a more prosperous society then a capatilistic one then hey I just might try communism yet.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by stormerne
The problem is not so much communism as totalitarianism. In other words, centralized control by an autocratic authority or the political concept that all citizens should be totally subject to an absolute state authority.

Moomunisn is a coercive economic systmes, It cannot be imposed with a coervice politicla system. What ever fremdoms the populous has, personal or political, they will use to get more economic choice and freedomn for themselves, eithier openly or underground. Communist polities will ievitable evole towards toatlitarianism as that have to take away personnal and political freedoms to prevent the people from using them to get economic choice.
Free market systems are democratic (but not egalitarian) in nature, with every every consumer and investor using voting with his purchases and investment choices. This spills over into the political and personal areas, encouraging more freedom in them.

A nother importent difference is that communism tends to rewards 'losers', and capitalism and free markets tend to reward winners. Guess which one will tend to attract more winners to supporting and adminstering it and increase its chances for success.

 

[Jelciakajo]

That's most definately not democratic, because not everyone has an equal 'dollar vote'. Its plutocratic.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Communism isn't hated in a irational manner, it's hated for valid reasons.

Name ONE benign Communist state (and it isn't Cuba, one of the WORST civil rights violators).

Another is the thinly veiled anti-semitism, I saw it in this thread, with the moron going on about "Sharon the baby-killer" and zionism is facsim, and BTW, if you EVER repeat that garbage here again, you won't be posting on this forum ever again.

Communism is a stab into the rights of man, in favor of the state.

It amazes me so many cling to this failed concept from two men who totally misinterpreted the future (yes, Marx and Engels).

The only good thing about Communism is that most rational people now see it for what it is, an attempt by self-appointed elitists to try and tell people they know what's best.

They never have, and never will.

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by T5812


Greed is not a part of human nature. People can live without greed. Some believe, that when all the problems of capitalism (poverty, unequality etc.) is gone, people will not be hatefull and greedy,. because those bad emotions are a product of capitalism.

Could you be any more idealistic? Do you even live in the real world?

The fact is, there is no way you can expect people to self-impose equality upon themselves. There will always be people who are bigger, stronger, smarter, etc. than others around them, and such people are not exactly willing to give up the natural advantage they have over those around them. Greed has nothing to do with it - every person in the world has a desire to use whatever natural gifts have been given to them for the benefit of themself and those around them. It's a part of human nature to want to take advantage of your talents to be as successful as possible. Communism hoes directly against this nature, and by doing so would completely squelch our progress as a society.

Think about it - if the possibility of material success is taken away, what motivation would there be for the more intelligent among us to advance science? For the more athletic and artistically talented among us to provide top quality entertainment? Since you have no opportunity to advance your standing in society, and there are no tangible benefits to you or your loved ones from hard work and ingenuity, such values would be completely lost in a Communist society, decreasing productivity and ultimately stagnating the progress of society as a whole, causing an unhappy populace and failing government that would bring about the end of such a system. There is a reason why Communism has always needed to be forced upon people - it goes against what humans expect from life, and takes away the opportunities that the vast majority of us use to provide happiness and meaning in our lives. And if you think this will change, you are really deluding yourself.

I'm not going to deny that Communist ideals sound very appealing. However, thinking practically, there is absolutely no way that human beings can thrive under a Communist system. For all of the supposed ills of Capitalism and Democracy, they still reign as the best systems of governance. I think it's no small coincidence that proponents of Communism, both here and elsewhere, are usually young students, who have the luxury of being able to live an idealistic existence.

To answer the original question - I have an intense dislike for Communism because, in reality, people must be repressed and have much of their personal freedom taken away in order for a true Communist system to be installed.

 

[Jelciakajo]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae

Name ONE benign Communist state (and it isn't Cuba, one of the WORST civil rights violators).

Another is the thinly veiled anti-semitism, I saw it in this thread, with the moron going on about "Sharon the baby-killer" and zionism is facsim, and BTW, if you EVER repeat that garbage here again, you won't be posting on this forum ever again.

Israel was pretty communist in the late 40s and early 50s, and still has a few communist institutions hanging around, such as the Kibbutz (collective farm) system.

 

[Adebisi]

Originally posted by T5812
Either your just making that up, or you talked with NATIONAL-SOCIALIST'S (Nazi's).

Nazi's HATE socialist's and communist's, just as much as they hate jews. Left wingers and zionist's burned together in the gas chambers of nazi germany.

Second of all, my ignorant friends, we socialist's and communist's have no hate for anyone other than facist capitalist pigs. And we are more against racisme than anyone other in this world. We believe in a free non-religious palestine, where jews and arabs can live together in peace. We are against the kind of zionism that people like Ariel "The baby killer" Sharon practise (we call i nazionism). It is racist and facist. It says that jews are the choosen race, and that arabs are lower beings.

The quotes are real, and I think you just prooved that. That's exactly the propaganda that creates the anti-semitism shown in my quotes.

The fact that you and the nazis hate each other doesn't mean much. You are still about the same.

Originally posted by Thadlerian
Unfortunately, kids can be found everywhere, to the left as well as to the right.

Yes, but they didn't begin to hate Jews just like that. The reason is the Communist anti-Israeli propaganda.

Originally posted by Benderino
Wow, that is the scariest thing I've ever heard. As an American Jew who lost 13 relatives in the Holocaust, that is a little too much to handle. I'm so sick and tired of Anti-Semitism.

Indeed.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Jelciakajo
That's most definately not democratic, because not everyone has an equal 'dollar vote'. Its plutocratic.

While not egalitarian, free markets are the MOST BROAD BASED from of democracy. Practically every one in a market ecomony participates in them from the time they get an allowace from their paretns or the few other source on income. Compare that to the % of persons who can (no children, no noncitizens etc) vote and do vote in political elections. Those voting with their money VASTLY outnumber thoses at the polling place, and include most of the politically disadvantaged.

 

[D' Artagnan]

The communism ideology isn't that bad... if you're part of the lowest social class. Unfortunately, communism almost always led to brutal dicatorships, mass murders, etc ,etc.
Now, everyone who calls himself 'communist' is considered as a blind follower of Stalin, Castro, etc.
IMO, communism is just an extreme political point of view.

 

[T5812]

Another is the thinly veiled anti-semitism, I saw it in this thread, with the moron going on about "Sharon the baby-killer" and zionism is facsim, and BTW, if you EVER repeat that garbage here again, you won't be posting on this forum ever again.

I did not say that zionism is nazism, i said that the way Sharon see's zionism, is nazi. Sharon see's Zionism as Osama Bin Laden see's Islam. But you did see that, didnt you? You just deliberatly left out some of the words when you quoted me. That is a very stupid way to have a discussion, so please stop doing it, and quote rigth when you quote me.

I do not have anything against jews, and i dont know any socialist's who do. It is not anti-semetic to critisize Israel. It is not anti-semetic to call Sharon a baby-killer. If it is, then you hate all white people, because you have critisized me. You also hate all black people, because there are black people that are communist, and you have critisized communism.
Moderator Action: banned , trolling, refused to obey AoA's warning above, legnth to be determined. Lefty. Lenght is 7 days
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Why did i call Sharon a baby-killer? Because he kills children. He orders his military to send missiles into civilians house's, even though that he knows there are innocent children inside. Not to mention the masacres he leaded before he became president.

 

[nixon]

Killing millions upon millions of innocent people doesn't really promote your so-called well-intentioned cause. Ahhh, right, you don't want to win voters, my mistake! :suicide:

 

[MrPresident]

Communism is fundamentally opposed to freedom of any kind. I kind of like freedom therefore I hate Communism. Also a true Communist will do anything, and I mean anything, to further the revolution. That includes murder, stealing, calling people by their middle names, pillaging and any other atrocity you can think of. Lenin was a Communist hero, if a little out with his timings, and anyone who says otherwise has either not read Marx or doesn't understand it. As the saying goes a Communist is someone who has read Marx, a Capitalist is someone who understands it.