Communism

[QuoVadisNation]

So I took it upon myself to read the Manifesto of the Communist Party. After reading through section II, I thought that it was implied that culture, basically, was a product of the Bougeoisie's interests. Is this correct?

And if so, I find that this is a very disturbing aspect of communism. Leaving behind culture and customs?

That's correct. Ideally, Marx and Engels, the writers of the Communist Manifesto, believed that current culture (and rules and nationalism) is simply an extension of something that's in the most interest of the ruling classes. Whether explicitly or unexplicitly, the intention of updating culture or rules will always be in the interest of the ruling class - and to bolster their material or spiritual wealth or to avoid material loss. It is, at its least according to Marx, a tool for holding the status quo. Marx also said nationalism was this as well and that nationalism would die out as the bourgeois culture did. That's where he probably got it wrong.

Anyone with three euros in their head knows that this is oversimplified. Culture ain't always about direction to the common or spiritual market. Sometimes people do things because they were born that way. But many historians have argued Marx purposely oversimplified his view on cultures and everything to get a point across. or maybe he didn't.

The point is.. don't read this book and assume you now know everything. There's roughly 200 years of material out there that discusses this premise to ultimate nasuem.

 

[aelf]

That's correct. Ideally, Marx and Engels, the writers of the Communist Manifesto, believed that current culture (and nationalism) is simply an extension of something that's in the most interest of the ruling classes. Whether explicitly or unexplicitly, the intention of updating culture or rules will always be in the interest of the ruling class - to bolster material or spiritual gain or to avoid material loss. It is, at its least according to Marx, a tool for holding the status quo. Their ideology was about re-making it into a new society. Marx also said nationalism was this as well and that nationalism would die out as the bourgeois culture did. That's where he probably got it wrong.

Nationalism seems to be dying in Europe, even if its bourgeois culture is still very much alive, so I guess he wasn't all that wrong.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

Nationalism seems to be dying in Europe, even if its bourgeois culture is still very much alive, so I guess he wasn't all that wrong.

I would argue that its actually been on the rise. Modern nationalism is defined.. hell, let's say as a feeling of personal empowerment of ones country, "group", and position against the presence of another power lording over it. Nowadays you have countries like Canada, China, Poland, Iran, and Muslims from all over wishing to empower their respective camps against other powers - peacefully, of course. And often to the point where it becomes bitter. Europe definitely has that attitude. I can provide an example right now. (see spoiler) And in part America's attitude is fueled whenever Europe's attitude extents over the pond. umm.. I understand there's a difference between nationalism and patriotism, but I don't care about that.

Spoiler :

lol. omg. its so true!

also: I suppose you can also argue the EU is a giant attempt at modern nationalism as well. But whateverz.

 

[aelf]

I would argue that its actually on the rise. Nationalism is defined.. hell, let's say as a feeling of personal empowerment of ones country and position against the presence of another power lording over it. Nowadays you have countries even like Canada, China, Poland, and Muslims from all over wishing to empower themselves against other powers. Often to the point where it becomes bitter. Europe definitely has that attitude. And in part America's attitude is fueled whenever Europe's attitude extents over the pond. umm.. I understand there's a difference between nationalism and patriotism, but I don't care about that.


Notice how I didn't forget Poland? : )

Nationalism is the stuff that got the European countries into two World Wars. I see a distinct lack of that in Western Europe nowadays when compared to the past. Heck, many of them seem pretty disillusioned by the state. I certainly don't think nationalism is "on the rise". Maybe in some Eastern European countries.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

I can respect your opinion. Sometimes things just aren't worth arguing over, right? : )

 

[aelf]

I can respect your opinion. Sometimes things just aren't worth arguing over, right? : )

I'm not really arguing. I'm just disagreeing based on my own observations... But, yeah, I'm not going to say much more.

 

[bigdog5994]

i see communism as a failed attempt to stop people from committing the seven deadly sins especially greed

that's what i said in the last communism thread

 

[Perfection]

Are you blaming people for liking car races?

Dude, that's a painting of a car race.

Come on, people!

 

[bigdog5994]

Dude, that's a painting of a car race.

Come on, people!

im sure there's paintings of Roman chariot races too

Edit: found one

 

[Perfection]

im sure there's paintings of Roman chariot races too

Edit: found one

Yeah, and it sucks too.

 

[aelf]

that's what i said in the last communism thread

Communism attempts to stop the seven deadly sins...?

What?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Those who are not amongst the dictatorship; i.e those who either do not fit in to the system, the bourgeoisie and aristocracy who must be liquidated, and the 99% of people who are not part of the ruling cadre.
Even amongst communism, you still need a leadership and directorship.

Leadership and directorship is not a ruling class. Sorry. Besides, Marx didn't mean a literal "dictatorship," its a figurative term.

Everybody else.

Who is "everybody else?" Its a state for The People. The People is everyone.

Can you honestly say that you see no class division in Cuba or the old USSR? The division was even more visible than in Western democracies!

They are/were flawed socialist systems. And the division between the "uppers" and "lowers" was almost purely merit-originating, and had almost nothing to do with any sort of imposition of them over the rest of the people as if they were better than them.

im sure there's paintings of Roman chariot races too

Edit: found one

That doesn't disprove what he said, though.

 

[bigdog5994]

Communism attempts to stop the seven deadly sins...?

What?

Yea think about it

pride
envy
gluttony
wrath
greed
sloth

doesn't it seem that communism tries to eliminate these things from society

 

[bigdog5994]

Yeah, and it sucks too.

well i would love to have that piece in my house

 

[aelf]

Yea think about it

pride
envy
gluttony
wrath
greed
sloth

doesn't it seem that communism tries to eliminate these things from society

That's Christianity.

 

[Wraith23]

Dude, that's a painting of a car race.

Come on, people!

Oh I though it was an iconic representation of bourgeois culture

 

[Perfection]

well i would love to have that piece in my house

Well that's because you're a right-winger and as I said earlier:

Well, it's not like the right winger's idea of culture is worth anything:

 

[bigdog5994]

Well that's because you're a right-winger and as I said earlier:

i was talking about the roman painting nascar sucks

 

[Perfection]

i was talking about the roman painting nascar sucks

So does the roman painting. My point is that you think it doesn't suck because you are a right-winger.

 

[Whomp]

Look at the kibbutzim to get a sense why communism struggles to be a viable option.