Complete Mac Mayania

[Beamup]

How about razing? We have so little culture developed, easy to see many of these towns flipping on us.

Shouldn't be a big deal. The Aztecs don't have that much more culture than we do. It'll be easier to just retake towns that flip.

I have a feeling this war is going to have this same rhythm, take a a few towns then make peace. Rearm after a few turns then move back in. It takes us 3 times as long to get a knight unit to the front. The Aztecs are replacing their units much faster.

I have a feeling that if we make one good, hard, push, they'll be out of it and we can mop up at our leisure. Between our technological (OK, resource) superiority, our Armies, and our larger army, we should be able to roll them up.

Also, shouldn't we be going after Smith's Trading Co.?

Kind of defeats the whole purpose of getting Economics if we don't. But we likely have some time.

 

[madviking]

Frunbloax- use the 'hotlink to forums' thing on imageshack.

 

[Blue Monkey]

...I shadowed much of your turns

I've been thnking about that since this morning. Does that mean you play the game in parallel, to see how the outcome of my choices differ from yours? I never thought of doing that. It would help to learn a lot.

 

[frunobulax]

Have grabbed save - will play as soon as I can, but am working Saturday and Sunday this weekend, so may not get chance to finish and post till this time tomorrow (Sunday).

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Chichen Itza is 3 turns (or less) from finishing Copernicus's Observatory.

Thoughts about shifting that to Smith's? That can have a huge economic boost for us.

Aoxo

 

[Blue Monkey]

Are we ahead enough in research to not lose by switching? I note the Aztecs got Gunpowder before we did.

 

[dojoboy]

Chichen Itza is 3 turns (or less) from finishing Copernicus's Observatory.

Thoughts about shifting that to Smith's? That can have a huge economic boost for us.

Aoxo

FWIW, I much prefer the science bonus from Copernicus's Observatory. If we switch to Communism, gpt will be much better. Plus, we can likely grab Smith's as well, just start it after CO finishes.

 

[Beamup]

I've been thnking about that since this morning. Does that mean you play the game in parallel, to see how the outcome of my choices differ from yours? I never thought of doing that. It would help to learn a lot.

Yep. That's exactly what I do. It tends to be highly illuminating.

FWIW, I much prefer the science bonus from Copernicus's Observatory. If we switch to Communism, gpt will be much better. Plus, we can likely grab Smith's as well, just start it after CO finishes.

I concur. Note, in particular, that nobody's built the Sistine Chapel yet. It's highly unlikely anybody will get to Economics (or Navigation, for that matter) before we build Smith's (and Magellan?)

One might even conclude from that fact that we appear to be ahead of the other continent(s) in tech - certainly we are along that branch.

 

[frunobulax]

Frunbloax- use the 'hotlink to forums' thing on imageshack.

What? Why?

 

[frunobulax]

The Mac Mayaniacs Age of Discovery

Just basic notes this time as I am very busy with work, so only key events included - but lots o' screenies.


Turn 0 - 840AD

Lowered luxury to 30%, Chemistry now in 6; 213 + 47gpt.
Palenque building Smith's Trading Co. in 30


Turn 1 - 850AD

Horseman defeated by Barbs SW of Akwesasne - now sending a few Knights to patrol 'the wilds' down there.


Turn 2 - 860AD

Nothing of note.


Turn 3 - 870AD

We build Copernicus' Observatory in CI
CI now building University to capitalize on this scientific bonus.

We also made contact with the SPANISH - they only have Monarchy to trade.

Turn 4 - 880AD

Built embassy with Spain in Madrid. They have 1 x iron, 1 x horse, 1 x luxury.


Turn 5 - 890AD

Made contact with the ENGLISH. They too only have Monarchy to trade. Built embassy with them in London.
The English do not have iron or horses, and only have one luxury (wine).

Turn 6 - 900AD

We discover CHEMISTRY - now researching MUSIC THEORY.... I know this might not be a popular choice but in view of the various overthrows of captured cities, as well as levels of unhappiness in some cities, I feel it prudent to aim to build the JS BACH GW (and increase our cultural standing). Salamanca now on a Palace prebuild to this end (adjusted production/worker assignments in Kabah and Tulum to increase Salamanca's production by 2 shields).
Note: believe Aztecs will have SISTINE in 10 or so turns

We make contact with the DUTCH

Turn 7 - 910AD

Embassy built with Dutch - they have NO iron or horses.


Turn 8 - 920AD

Tikal building Magellan's Voyage (in 25)

Crux founded.

Made contact with the PORTUGESE - who are at WAR with SPAIN!
Built embassy with Portugal - they have iron and horses and three lux.

Turn 9 - 930AD

Nothing much happened...


Turn 10 - 940AD

Netherlands and Celts sign peace treaty (Celts only nation we haven't made contact with).
MUSIC THEORY discovered, now researching METALLURGY (in 7).
Salamanca switched from Palace prebuild and is now building JS BACH (in 25)
Destroy Barb camp far SW of Akwesasne

Huexotla ovethrow our governor and pledge allegiance to Aztecs

HANDOVER NOTES:
there are still 2 armies and various knights in the vicinity of Huexotla who have yet to be moved (see screenshot below).
I wasn't sure if we should go to war on this overthrow of Huexotla issue, or remove our forces out of
Aztec territory and delay...? Aoxomoxoa, everyone, your thoughts!?
Note that I haven't traded MAPS with any of the nations we have made contact with yet - so they haven't contacted Aztecs yet either (I think!)

We have 3 GW on the go:
Tikal - Magellans Voyage - due in 21
Palenque - Smiths Trading - due in 20
Salamanca - JS BAch - due in 24

2 techs discovered - Chemistry and Music Theory. One city (Crux) founded. Made contact with 4 nations (Spanish, English, Dutch and Portugese - only Celts to find!)

We are - I believe - top in research, and are definitely top in land area, population and VPs
[Mayaniacs 1684 VP, Aztecs 1232 VP, Portugese 841 VP]

Looking good

940AD


ROSTER:
Beamup (on deck)
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
frunobulax (just finished)
Aoxomoxoa (up!)

 

[Beamup]

Looks to me like we should launch our attack now. 40 Knights and three Armies, with a steady stream of reinforcements (if we start building useful units again), should overwhelm the Aztecs handily. Remember to crush Tlalmanalco immediately to prevent them from hooking up their Iron!!!

We can trade with Portugal for three luxuries - we can get their three luxuries (and a map swap) for our three and Music Theory - IMO it's unlikely they can beat us to JS Bach given our head start (no way they're pumping 25 spt). With those luxuries in hand, that's 8 more happy faces in every city, which will let us turn off entertainment and give us a very good buffer against WW. We will also be able to research at max rate while making a profit.

That will also make most of the happiness builds in progress superflous. Just on luxuries, we'll be able to sustain size 14 cities (assuming marketplaces). 16 with Bach. With a bit of entertainment slider for backup as needed, Temples, Colosseums, and Cathedrals are entirely unnecessary.

Also take note that trading maps doesn't give them contact with the Aztecs. That won't happen unless we actually trade contacts (requires Printing Press, which I don't think we should waste time on) or one of them gets Navigation. Since nobody else even has Astronomy, that's not going to happen until well after the Aztecs are gone. Hence we should trade our map around for all their gold and maps - that should also help us contact the Celts.

Also, why are we wasting time and shields building Musketmen? They are a very poor choice under any circumstances, and are certainly useless to us now. Those should all be Knights, not Musketmen.

Finally, I observe that we've got an awful lot of cities building Temples without Marketplaces. Marketplaces are MUCH better for happiness, and Libraries are the building of choice for culture. Temples should never be built before them.

 

[audsquad]

What? Why?

I think madviking meant to direct that at Blue Monkey, who'd complained about some black boxes showing up on his screenshots.

 

[dojoboy]

Haven't looked at the save yet, but what he said.

We do need to assimilate the Aztecs before they can communicate w/ our other rivals, and before they can make contact themselves. There is time, but I believe the most important part of Beamup's analysis is:

Looks to me like we should launch our attack now.

 

[Beamup]

I had another thought - we're not far from Military Tradition. If we collect newly-produced Knights at forward Barracks, and build up a decent treasury, then when we take Tenoch (with Leo's), we can do a mass upgrade and clean up with Cavs.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Okay, I'm 6 turns into this set and your idea makes very much sense. The aztecs just had too many reinforcements pouring out of theNorthern cities for our Knights and armies to keep up with. They had at least 18 troops near Huexactl after I took that city. You can't put the armies into the city to replenish HP's, so they are stuck out in the open.

Now we can catch our breath, make a huge jump income, then make a huge jump in military strength as well as getting more troops to the front.

Aoxo

 

[Blue Monkey]

Re temple builds: during my turn at bat I set to build a few temples, rushing some of them to quickly turn around a bad disorder problem; not as effective as markets for happiness or libraries for culture but I needed a quick bump of both in a lot of cities simultaneously. I wasn't advocating it as a long-term preference.

re contact with aztecs: can't we get a clue by selecting Aztecs in the diplomacy screen and seeing who is at peace with them (peace/war=contact, no line=no contact)?

re war with Aztecs: It's my subjective impression that the Aztecs pump out units like crazy; we need to keep our assault on the move while simultaneously securing captured cities from rebellion. I'm not sure specifically how to do this at present; we need a large force, strong culture, high production, and happiness.

 

[Beamup]

Re temple builds: during my turn at bat I set to build a few temples, rushing some of them to quickly turn around a bad disorder problem; not as effective as markets for happiness or libraries for culture but I needed a quick bump of both in a lot of cities simultaneously. I wasn't advocating it as a long-term preference.

Why worry about the culture? Only a couple of the cities building temples can benefit from it at all AFAICT. Our civ's overall culture isn't really an issue unless we want to wait 50-100 turns before going back to war. They just won't have time to notably affect the culture ratio. Competing with the Temple of Artemis just is not in the cards.

re contact with aztecs: can't we get a clue by selecting Aztecs in the diplomacy screen and seeing who is at peace with them (peace/war=contact, no line=no contact)?

Good point.

re war with Aztecs: It's my subjective impression that the Aztecs pump out units like crazy; we need to keep our assault on the move while simultaneously securing captured cities from rebellion. I'm not sure specifically how to do this at present; we need a large force, strong culture, high production, and happiness.

What's going on is more that they spent the entire peacetime building units nonstop, I think. We just have to grind down all those new longbows. The early phase of the war will be more about taking out their units to wear down their army - a focus on sweeping up the cities comes a bit later.

And the war should be easier than that, I think. We already have most of the force we need to take them out, so long as we use it tactically to make sure we're attacking Longbows a lot more often than they're attacking us. As for culture, the best solution to culture flips is to take out the next layer of cities so that there are no longer Aztec tiles surrounding them. Greatly cuts down the odds. A few cities will likely flip, yeah, but we can just recapture them.

So of your needs:
- Large force: check!
- Strong culture: as good as it's going to get
- High production: check!
- Happiness: as soon as we trade with Portugal for those luxuries, check!

The tactics I envision for the early war go something like this. Stack most of our Knights under the armies. Have several more behind the armies, out of Longbow reach. The AI will send all its troops after the lone Knights because it won't want to take on the armies - and we take them out by the score as they try to bypass the big stacks.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

As of this moment (6 turns in), I have taken Tlalamanaco, Teayo and Tlapanoya and destroyed that new city just to the south of Tlalamanco. I did lose one army, but created another. So we still have 3 armies. We have traded for 4 lux's from the Portugal/Celts, and we have also made a landing with a settler there and have a town created. The increased luxury has allowed me to crank the ent slider down to 0 and we have a big surplus going on now. Will finish my 4 turns later today after work and then post.

Aoxo

 

[Beamup]

We have traded for 4 lux's from the Portugal/Celts, and we have also made a landing with a settler there and have a town created. The increased luxury has allowed me to crank the ent slider down to 0 and we have a big surplus going on now.

Sounds good. I'm particularly pleased to see that 4th luxury. With our now 7 luxuries, that's 16 happy faces per city, allowing us to support size 18. Bach will up that to 20, without considering Temples/Colossea/Cathedrals! Talk about your major buffers against WW. I like it.

It may have taken us a while, but we are definitely making good use of being the first to make contact between the continents. Given the current tech situation and the fact that we should be MUCH bigger than any of the other civs after this war is done, I think we've probably got a Space Race victory almost sewn up already! I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we managed to launch before anybody else makes the Modern era. Of course, there are other victory options... but I don't see us losing this at this point unless we really screw up by the numbers.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Without a doubt, i messed up in not getting those lux's earlier in the turns.

I still think that at our current levels, especially based on how long it takes to get troops to the front, in war with the aztecs we are in a situation where we can gain 10 yards, or go on and gain 20 yards only to lose 10 back during their turn.

I certainly would not have been able to hold on to Tlapanoya had not I got peace declared. If we go along with the strat of upgrading Knights to Calvary, I recommend getting a barracks (for upgrading) built up somewhere along the front lines (probably needs to be rushed). IIRC we were at about +395 gold at a 40% science/0% ent level with just about every city filled with with happy citizens.

The Celts and the Portugeuse are the big players to the east, and neither of them are as big as the Aztecs are now. Obviously the Aztecs are resource poor, but even now they are bigger citywise/areawise as any of the other civs.

Aoxo