Complicity

[brennan]

I have criticised comparison of detention camps with nazi death camps myself, but your reading of Hobbs' post is unnecessary. He makes his meaning clear and the point he intended for discussion is not affected by whether or not his post was a bit hyperbolic.

 

[Hehehe]

I have criticised comparison of detention camps with nazi death camps myself, but your reading of Hobbs' post is unnecessary. He makes his meaning clear and the point he intended for discussion is not affected by whether or not his post was a bit hyperbolic.

My hyperbolic post was there to point out the ridiculous comparison between United States and Nazi Germany

 

[Lexicus]

He drew a direct comparison between US and the Third Reich. Third Reich, which is most famous for the genocide. He didn't say it directly, but the ridiculous comparison along with the implications are there. It's the same thing as calling detention centers "concentration camps". It's not saying genocide, but it is implying it. It is evoking images and the language of genocide

And you're a moron if you think that the current US immigration policy could not possibly be a prelude to a genocidal policy. According to the last count I can find, 24 people have died in ICE custody, and that's only the numbers the public knows about - I wouldn't be surprised if there are some we don't know about.

Now, before you scoff - I know exactly what you will say, 24? 24 is nothing compared to six million or eleven million or however many were killed by the Nazis - bear in mind that there isn't any excuse for a single person to die in the custody of the government of the most powerful and wealthy nation ever to have existed in human history. Why has even one child died in detention? The answer is deliberate cruelty, the kind of cruelty that - regardless of what you might say, regardless of what you might think - can absolutely lead to genocide.

My hyperbolic post was there to point out the ridiculous comparison between United States and Nazi Germany

Yeah, it's very telling that you think this is cause for hyperbole but the death of children in these camps isn't even worth commenting on.

 

[Hehehe]

And you're a moron if you think that the current US immigration policy could not possibly be a prelude to a genocidal policy. According to the last count I can find, 24 people have died in ICE custody, and that's only the numbers the public knows about - I wouldn't be surprised if there are some we don't know about.

Now, before you scoff - I know exactly what you will say, 24? 24 is nothing compared to six million or eleven million or however many were killed by the Nazis - bear in mind that there isn't any excuse for a single person to die in the custody of the government of the most powerful and wealthy nation ever to have existed in human history. Why has even one child died in detention? The answer is deliberate cruelty, the kind of cruelty that - regardless of what you might say, regardless of what you might think - can absolutely lead to genocide.



Yeah, it's very telling that you think this is cause for hyperbole but the death of children in these camps isn't even worth commenting on.

24 people dead? All gassed to death on purpose? Holy moly I'm sorry for not taking the Trump Holocaust seriously earlier. You're right, this is the worst atrocity of this millenia. Every US citizen who pays taxes is aiding and abetting a genocide

 

[AmazonQueen]

24 people dead? All gassed to death on purpose? Holy moly I'm sorry for not taking the Trump Holocaust seriously earlier. You're right, this is the worst atrocity of this millenia. Every US citizen who pays taxes is aiding and abetting a genocide

The Nazis didn't start off with death camps, they started off with detention camps, mainly for political opponents.
The parallels aren't exact but a disregard for basic human rights is.

 

[Lexicus]

24 people dead? All gassed to death on purpose? Holy moly I'm sorry for not taking the Trump Holocaust seriously earlier. You're right, this is the worst atrocity of this millenia. Every US citizen who pays taxes is aiding and abetting a genocide

As far as I know the Nuremberg trials made no distinction between deaths from exposure in the concentration camps and deliberate gassing. Both were rightly considered murder.
Anyway, your inability to actually respond to the argument is unsurprising. I am curious, though, do you even feel the need to tell yourself something that makes these deaths okay in your mind? What excuses do you have? Or do you just not care at all?

 

[Gorbles]

@Hehehe (and also generally)

Much like in another thread, I dislike how (fair and understandable) criticism of the slippery slope fallacy has made its way so thoroughly into online discourse that any mention of consequences of real-life actions is dismissed as exaggeration, or the same kind of fallacy. Sometimes that slope is real, and not just perceived.

Also, personally, repeatedly referencing the Holocaust when people are talking about genocide is intentionally conflating the two for the sake of undermining actual talk about genocide. The Holocaust is one of the most famous, and indeed most horrific examples. But that doesn't mean that a) something similar can't happen again, and that b) we can't talk about any other genocidal activities.

It goes back to complicity. At what point does looking at ongoing atrocities and refusing to believe they're as bad as people say, or that they could get worse, become an intentional refusal to recognise such? Sometimes it's okay to be hyperbolic about things. To me, getting mad over video games (as an example) is often over the top. Getting mad about people in cages is arguably not over the top.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Yeah, it's very telling that you think this is cause for hyperbole but the death of children in these camps isn't even worth commenting on.

https://www.aila.org/infonet/deaths-at-adult-detention-centers

The youngest person on that list is 21. Seriously, stop lying. Whenever I see you say anything about stuff like this, my default stance is just to not believe you. I'm sure you think it's because I'm a nazi and love defending nazis, but really it's just because you are so repeatedly dishonest you've made yourself a completely unreliable source of information.

 

[Hehehe]

The Nazis didn't start off with death camps, they started off with detention camps, mainly for political opponents.
The parallels aren't exact but a disregard for basic human rights is.

Yes, everything except 100% far left open borders is literally Hitler. It is exactly what the Nazis did. This much we've already established. Nazis did a lot of bad stuff, but perhaps the worst thing is when they didn't let everyone immigrate to Nazi Germany

As far as I know the Nuremberg trials made no distinction between deaths from exposure in the concentration camps and deliberate gassing. Both were rightly considered murder.
Anyway, your inability to actually respond to the argument is unsurprising. I am curious, though, do you even feel the need to tell yourself something that makes these deaths okay in your mind? What excuses do you have? Or do you just not care at all?

What argument? Are you suggesting that those people were killed intentionally?

Also, on the topic of kids, what would you do with them? Throw them on the street without their parents? Or would you provide them with shelter, while their applications are being processed?

@Hehehe (and also generally)

Much like in another thread, I dislike how (fair and understandable) criticism of the slippery slope fallacy has made its way so thoroughly into online discourse that any mention of consequences of real-life actions is dismissed as exaggeration, or the same kind of fallacy. Sometimes that slope is real, and not just perceived.

Also, personally, repeatedly referencing the Holocaust when people are talking about genocide is intentionally conflating the two for the sake of undermining actual talk about genocide. The Holocaust is one of the most famous, and indeed most horrific examples. But that doesn't mean that a) something similar can't happen again, and that b) we can't talk about any other genocidal activities.

It goes back to complicity. At what point does looking at ongoing atrocities and refusing to believe they're as bad as people say, or that they could get worse, become an intentional refusal to recognise such? Sometimes it's okay to be hyperbolic about things. To me, getting mad over video games (as an example) is often over the top. Getting mad about people in cages is arguably not over the top.

It is mostly the far left that brings up the Holocaust references. And obviously, genocide is bad, but this isn't it

 

[Lexicus]

The youngest person on that list is 21. Seriously, stop lying. Whenever I see you say anything about stuff like this, my default stance is just to not believe you. I'm sure you think it's because I'm a nazi and love defending nazis, but really it's just because you are so repeatedly dishonest you've made yourself a completely unreliable source of information.

Do you just not see the word "adult" on the top of your list there?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino...jqEPL8NCeCJ7qaGinN2TJOuTfEkVI1BKJDyISX3Jee7Rs

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrant...ntion/immigrant-kids-keep-dying-cbp-detention

Seven children Manfred.

Are you suggesting that those people were killed intentionally?

Absolutely, they were killed intentionally. They were locked up for no reason and then treated with deliberate cruelty and neglect that resulted in their deaths.

Also, on the topic of kids, what would you do with them? Throw them on the street without their parents? Or would you provide them with shelter, while their applications are being processed?

Wait, you are seriously characterizing these camps as "provid[ing] them with shelter"?? As in, the Trump Administration is doing this out of concern for their welfare???

Can you explain why Trump Administration lawyers are arguing that the law doesn't require the government to provide these children with toothbrushes and soap? If the administration is detaining these children for their own good you'd think it would let them wash off with soap and brush their teeth, surely?

 

[Hehehe]

Absolutely, they were killed intentionally. They were locked up for no reason and then treated with deliberate cruelty and neglect that resulted in their deaths.

People die. It is tragic, and hopefully it would never happen. If you think that these people were killed deliberately, I suggest you take it up with the police. If you have a problem with the immigration laws in general, take it to the ballot box (I hear moderates are eating up all this concentration camp nonsense).

Wait, you are seriously characterizing these camps as "provid[ing] them with shelter"?? As in, the Trump Administration is doing this out of concern for their welfare???

Can you explain why Trump Administration lawyers are arguing that the law doesn't require the government to provide these children with toothbrushes and soap? If the administration is detaining these children for their own good you'd think it would let them wash off with soap and brush their teeth, surely?

Are they also being made to drink from the toilets?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Do you just not see the word "adult" on the top of your list there?

Oh yeah never mind then.

 

[Lexicus]

Oh yeah never mind then.

So, you butt into this thread to falsely call me a liar because you didn't read your link carefully, and then when confronted with the fact that children have actually died in these camps you apparently don't find it worth commenting on either.

Are they also being made to drink from the toilets?

You are a swine and not worth talking to.

 

[Gorbles]

It is mostly the far left that brings up the Holocaust references. And obviously, genocide is bad, but this isn't it

This bolded statement literally means nothing here in-context, because you went all-in on the comparison. You literally used the phrase "Trump Holocaust" - nobody else did. The post you quoted said the US (the country, nation, whichever is more accurate) was perpetrating the same kinds of crimes.

The second half of your sentence illustrates the rest of the problem. You don't think whatever is being discussed is genocide. Cool. That's not an argument! People are making these long posts, and you're responding to them with "yeah but I think it's not". That's not a rebuttal. That's not anything of substance. That's just you not believing people online, which is entirely your right, but not exactly something that helps. We're discussing real things of substance and our relation to these things happening and you're quibbling because you personally don't feel a word (which has a standardised international definition) doesn't fit.

Maybe we should say "mass incarceration, mistreatment and eventual mass deaths of specific particular groups of people" instead. But some people opt for the shorter word that has the same meaning

Now, you could argue intent, sure. But that's a whole other thread. I've spent too much time illustrating this as it is, I'm just trying in good faith to show you why you're getting the reaction you are.

 

[Hehehe]

You are a swine and not worth talking to.

Normally, here, I would ask for a source on the toothbrush thing. But to be honest, even if you gave me one, I wouldn't even bother reading it (looking into the highly partisan Kavanaugh accusations, all I learned was that I had wasted my time taking it seriously).

I will say this however. If what you say is the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth (I doubt it, but I will entertain the possibility). If the Trump administration really were doing that, then it would be wrong for them to do so. On the other hand, perhaps this opens up an opportunity for you to be the change you want to see. You provide them with toothbrushes, since Trump apparently cannot be trusted to do so.

 

[Lexicus]

Normally, here, I would ask for a source on the toothbrush thing.

https://www.courthousenews.com/feds-tell-9th-circuit-detained-kids-safe-and-sanitary-without-soap/

SAN FRANCISCO (CN) – The Trump administration argued before a Ninth Circuit panel Tuesday that the government is not required to give soap or toothbrushes to children apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border and can have them sleep on concrete floors in frigid, overcrowded cells, despite a settlement agreement that requires detainees be kept in “safe and sanitary” facilities.

 

[El_Machinae]

Since HeHeHe has derailed the thread, I will suggest that he is complicit in doing so

 

[Gorbles]

Why drag the Nazi Germany references into it (same kind of crimes, concentration camps) if that's not the reference people want to make?

Because though the Holocaust was a specific terrible (multi-year spanning) event, they did a lot to a lot of other folks, too. And the road to the death camps was paved with concetration or "work" camps, and before that, propaganda and so on. Plenty of historical parallels to talk about without focusing on the Holocaust itself.

I mean, you could discuss other genocidal events too, but the Holocaust is well-taught (at least in UK education) and WW2 and Nazi Germany is also covered pretty extensively. It's good common ground for debate.

 

[Lexicus]

Since HeHeHe has derailed the thread, I will suggest that he is complicit in doing so

I would submit that it isn't necessarily derailing the thread to establish exactly what it is we are discussing complicity in.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Weird how the usual suspects come in here to downplay fascism, racism and the usual eh?

It's almost as if they...