Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Molybdeus, Sep 1, 2007.
I'm french and dumb.
Yeah, I tend to classify "REXing" as primarily settler focused expansion for land grabbing, although i guess you could lump in captured barb cities if they crop up. I don't think I'm wrong on that, but then I guess it can be up to one's interpretation.
In general I agree that REX refer to self settled cities, but if it is faster to capture AI cities say with WC or immortals and the AI is better at rexing than us, then the most effective rex is the early city conquest. After all, you are expanding rapidly. Right?
EDIT: Xpost with lymond
well, we know one of those is certainly not true.
You know, it's interesting to me that I've pretty much always known that English is not your 1st, and that you are French (French Canadian, right?...edit: ummm....duh), but now and then you pop out some really complex English words. I've actually had to look up one or two and my vocabulary is pretty strong (family of teachers)
I still delineate the two, but you are basically correct. But I really call that rushing vs. rexxing. I mean, the very fact that I REX is that I have the ability/room to do so...and the means. The reason I rush is I don't.
I agree. Only other time I rush is when it is some one like JC/Ragnar/monti is next door and I am all freaking out. Sort of like killing bugs in the midst of a full blown panic out of fear more than malice. Weaaaaall in the case of those leaders it is malice based on past run ins. They had it coming .
See Pacal would never do that.
there are a couple of things I would probably add:
The traits allow for very quick tecnhological development for two reasons: The first is the ability to knock out workers very quickly: which in turn allows you to develop the land quicker than your opponents. The adavantage is most notable on lower levels.
The second is cheap granaries. This should encourage these buildings being built first (after monuments?) and usually results in faster growing cities. Any tech that allows you to develop the land is usually the focus early on. Monarchy is a nice tech to get to handle this facet. slavery is also more useful because of this and can be used to in conjunction to develop cities more quickly.
the third is cheap harbours: and this can make the great lighthouse very effective when you can build lots of coastal cities.
As such, you may wish to avoid early conflicts and get open borders with as many people as you can. Civics can be chosen with a view to protecting diploamtic relationships. On lower levels, a tech lead is virtually guaranteed. Which does make waging war quite easy.
While the expansive trait is a bit of a one trick pony (good with the great lighthouse: not always so good otherwise) Pacal can back this up with the financial trait: which makes the Colosses very attractive with lots of fish resources.
In the later stages, you also have the choice of running state property (on land where you can build lots of watermills) while being able to deal with the health problems comfortably, or environmentalism, which is awesome with the financial trait. A combination of windmills, forest preserves, towns and corporations makes for truly impressive economies. Though the best in the later stages is always going to be Hannibal.
The UU makes chariot rushes difficult for opponents. Consider this before wading in against him.
The UB is ok. It's nice when you lack the luxuries.
As such, you have a civ which is incredibly flexible and doesn't need a great start to win comfortably.
Pacal can cope with any map: but seems to have been designed to be truly exceptional on pangeas.
Thanks for the explanation! It will make it easier for me to actually understand some of the posts/guides here. But there are still many acronyms I need to figure out
He has some unique trait/starting tech thing, I believe he's the only expansive civ that starts with mining (and can tech bronze working very fast), so he's the only leader without goody huts who can grow to 2, then whip a worker and save time (you might need a commerce tile).
One of the top leaders IMO, EXP + Ball Courts is just too good a Synergy, and he can also adapt easily to coastal maps with GLH and lots of coastal cities with granary + harbor + ball court built first in every city.
Also if you can catch an AI before they get copper connected, you can pull off a Holkan rush, but this has one of the narrowest opportunity windows.
OMG! We actually agree on something. I just almost spit out my Fruity Pebbles
Scouting is very important. You need to know which of your neighbors you will have some kind of an advantage against.
If one of your neighbors is Persia, Egypt, Mongolia or any with a UU later than swordsman, you should use your short window to conquer them.
I didn't see anyone mention the Holkan's advantage vs Mongolia yet.
The Keshiks are a Horse Archer that gives up it's Immunity to first strikes for a First strike of it's own. The Holkan nullifies this advantage. The swiftness of the Keshik can pillage resourses, but it can't stop you from countering it. So, your cities are safe and you can usually shoo them away from some of your resourses too.
Avoid the AGG axe leaders, Rome and Sumeria, unless you can sit on their copper and Iron. Avoid Native America, unless you want to die a horrible death.
Korea's Hwacha will hurt your stacks, so it is good to split stacks vs them and attack vs two sides of the same city to keep some units at full health. Though this is around the time where Holkans are becoming too weak to use.
I haven't done the math, but even with the weaker Holkans (4 base str), with some luck, one should be able to defend your city vs Oromo Warriors (9 base str) with your Immunity to their first strikes and city defense, especially on hills, with your early promotions (possibly up to Combat3). Sure you'll lose some, but perhaps not as many as one might think and yours cost a lot less to build.
The Ball Court is based on the Collossum, which is cheaper to build than the Aqueduct or Hammam and has a +3 total happiness gain vs the +2 happiness gain of that UB. Yes, you don't gain the health, but Pacal is EXP, so that doesn't matter.
If using Unrestricted leaders, the Ball Court can be built faster when using any CRE leader, such as Sury [EXP/CRE] or WvO [CRE/FIN]. The aqueduct cannot be built faster by any trait.
The other thing to compare them against are temples. They cost the same amount (240 on Mara, IIRC), but give you far bigger benefits (twice as much if you would've built the Colosseum anyway, three times as much otherwise).
Thanks to this guide, I've been giving the Mayans some special attention lately. I think that the Ball Court is my favorite part of this civ. I'm definitely going to have to try Sury with them
Does anybody know if you can pre-build axemen with this civ? What I mean is, if you already have Hunting and Bronzeworking but you don't have copper yet. If you start building a warrior and then hook up copper, well the production go into an axe or Holkan?
I think it goes into a spear rather than an axe.
and if you don't have hunting, it will stay as a warrior
I don't think hunting and BW obsoletes warrior builds - a while back there was a thread about obsoleting warriors and it was found that if you didn't hook cities up to Iron they were available until MT when they got obsoleted by Muskets. I assume the same applies to hooking up Copper and obsoleting warriors with Axes.
It obsoletes it if all the next level upgrades (or their successors) are available.
Quechuas are available until macemen (requiring iron), so they are a special case where there are 3 immediate upgrades: macemen, axes, and spears.
WTH? Why would Quechuas be an exception? Can't any warrior work?
Btw, you typed macemen, when I'm sure you meant swordsmen.
I'm sure Vic meant Macemen, but the error is that you can build them with copper
Willem of Maya wouldnt make any sense, the extra advantage of the Ball Court is that it is paired with EXP, so you have the extra health in every city to support 2 more population points.
Sury of Maya would be the best combination if wanting to get the best advantage from the Ball Court - half cost granary, library, ball court and harbor.
Ball Courts are better than both Hammams and Barays too. In most games you dont need to build 100 aqueducts that early on, and an 80 Ball Court is a much better investment for +3 than any other happy building in the game, perhaps except for hippodromes. With Pacal being Financial, you can also delay both CoL and Monarchy and go for Construction before CoL. You might even be able to grab some nice tech trades with this too. Alternatively on an Archipelago map with GLH, Compass before Writing will let you backfill almost everything through tech trading, along with getting you super cheap harbors for your GLH economy. Fin + Exp are simply beast traits for water maps.
Pacal of Carthage is also a very strong combination to try out for 50 Cothons, but you lose the bonuses of either Hannibal or the Ball Court to gain this advantage, so you will need Monarchy sooner (Compass > Monarchy > Currency is very strong for this, courthouses dont stand a chance against EXP Cothons + GLH anyway, you will have 5 trade routes per city very very fast).
I forgot its very easy to trade compass for monarchy too. Maths, Alpha, Monarchy, Calendar, Aesth, the AI will give you any of these plus any ancient techs you skipped for Compass on Immortal+.
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