Compulsory National Service Back on the Table in the US

[Goodfella]

Erm. That is kind of the rationale behind armed forces.

What kind of a naive person joins the military and, provided they get a combat role, thinks they're unlikely to have to directly kill anyone?

But I suppose you mean their intent is rather to defend the homeland? It's just that, again if they're in a combat role, that defence will likely involve killing someone.

Provided they're a member of a highly trained and well-equiped national army. Otherwise they're more likely to be killed.

For one, most people in the military are never going to fire their weapons at an enemy combatant, let alone kill him (so it's not naive at all). Second, it's the motives that matter. They join for a lot of reasons. To defend the country or to get educational benefits are two obvious ones off the top of my head. As Patroklos says, he's willing to kill if he has to, but does not desire to do so. He did not join to kill.

 

[Borachio]

Similarly not wanting to have to kill people does not conflict with satisfaction that I did when circumstances require it. I wouldn't know about that personally.

You seem to imply that you did feel satisfaction when you killed someone. But then you suggest you haven't had the experience personally.

 

[Patroklos]

I was talking hypothetically, then made it clear I have not personally encountered this situation.

 

[Borachio]

Hmm.

I remember having to load an ammunition ship when I was a dock worker. I was a little concerned by it all. And there was a very great deal of the stuff. But the foreman did assure me that all of it was just going to be used for exercises and training purposes. I still feel uneasy about my involvement.

I suspect he may have lied just to placate me.

 

[Cutlass]

Yeah I never understood why places like Denmark and Norway still have the draft.

Because they are close enough in geographic proximity to any war that is likely to hit their territory that they won't have time to train new conscripts or volunteers. Having a trained reserve makes sense when you have no slack in the time you have to mobilize. The US can afford to take the time to train. Other nations can't.

 

[Patroklos]

Hmm.

I remember having to load an ammunition ship when I was a dock worker. I was a little concerned by it all. And there was a very great deal of the stuff. But the foreman did assure me that all of it was just going to be used for exercises and training purposes. I still feel uneasy about my involvement.

I suspect he may have lied just to placate me.

More likely it was a prepositioning ship. The Military Sealift Command keeps ships backed with gear and supplies all over the world so that when they are needed they are at hand rather than weeks away. You fly in the people to meet he gear and you have a reaction time of a few days.

 

[BvBPL]

This is why I think we need to be far more careful with those volunteers who do get accepted into the military. We can have it both ways as long as we are careful who do get accepted, much like how the police have become far more professional during the past few decades by taking such strong measures to remove the more blatant bigots, racists, and sadists.

We have a culture that encourages people to contribute to their greater community by enlisting in the military. Barring willing people from participating in the military divorces them from the social contract. This could cause resentment in the parties in questions as they are unable to fulfill their perceived obligations under the social contract, which of course risks the parties in question divorcing themselves from the general public.

Furthermore, the military is one nation means by which people from diverse stretches of nation come together and join in a shared culture. In this way, the military serves to strengthen bonds of national unity. Indeed, through that military indoctrination, people experiences the antisocial behaviors you speak may be trained out of those behaviors.

For those reasons, strictly barring some parties from service in the military is decidedly anticommunitarian.

There are other reasons why that might not be such a great idea, such as the expense of screening military applicants.

 

[Borachio]

More likely it was a prepositioning ship. The Military Sealift Command keeps ships backed with gear and supplies all over the world so that when they are needed they are at hand rather than weeks away. You fly in the people to meet he gear and you have a reaction time of a few days.

It was a bright red Norwegian vessel. Only a relatively little thing. But absolutely immaculate in every way.

Who knows where it was going. Very unlikely anything to do with the US. Except through NATO, of course.

 

[Patroklos]

MSC uses commercial ships and ships from trusted allied nations. But year, no way to know. When was this?

 

[Borachio]

Golly. Let me think. 93, 94 maybe.

But anyway, we used to handle other ordnance. Once we put a Harrier jump jet in a shipping container. I was surprised it would fit. But they are quite small.

The point I'm trying to make is that all sorts of people get to handle military equipment and thus aid with the killing of people, whether they like it or not. Whether they're in the military or not.

And in any case the military is funded by the industrial/production complex of a whole nation, so that everyone who pays taxes contributes in some way.

 

[Patroklos]

Yeah, st some point that abstraction becomes meaningless. Maybe it applies to me as a military member, but not you as a citizen at large. You are too far removed. You are not even doing anything deliberate like buying war bonds.

 

[Chiteng]

For a soldier to be effective, the soldier must agree that the society he protects is worth
the sacrifice being asked. Not all potential soldiers will make that connection.

It is a waste of time and money to attempt to use un-motivated manpower.

A good example of a society that tried to do exactly that is Italy in the 1930's

They did not do well in actual combat.

 

[Borachio]

On the other hand, I read about some guy in WW2 saying that professional soldiers (plainly talking officer class) could be a real menace in actual wartime. Since they're more concerned with their own careers and advancement. While the conscript just wants to get the job over with and go home to his proper occupation.

 

[TomYo689]

I registered for draft as far as I knew compulsory service was still on the table when was it taken off in the last few months?

 

[GhostWriter16]

I never cease to hate this idea. The wonder is not that it just keeps coming up, but that it keeps coming up from so many directions, who should all know better.

For once I actually agree with you.... Dead on....

Let's not forget that Charlie Rangel is a democrat.

Yeah. I find it somewhat ironic considering US history that its a black congressmen who is supporting re-legalizing slavery

Moderator Action: The draft is not slavery. Please stop making such ridiculous statements.

 

[woody60707]

facepalm/

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4059223

This is one of the silliest scare tactics I've seen.

 

[sophie]

Yeah I never understood why places like Denmark and Norway still have the draft.

They're on constant alert for Deutsch-kom 5. We don't want a repeat of 1940.

 

[Ajidica]

For a soldier to be effective, the soldier must agree that the society he protects is worth
the sacrifice being asked. Not all potential soldiers will make that connection.

It is a waste of time and money to attempt to use un-motivated manpower.

A good example of a society that tried to do exactly that is Italy in the 1930's

They did not do well in actual combat.

For the record, Italian soldiers performed relatively well given their relatively outdated equipment. It was just their commanders were pretty abysmal.
(Similar story with the Italian Navy. It was actualy pretty decent and could have really harmed British shipping in the Med, but their commanders were absolutely terrified of the Royal Navy and losing their battleships so they rarely made any large movements.

 

[Joecoolyo]

They're on constant alert for Deutsch-kom 5. We don't want a repeat of 1940.

I was actually planning on making that joke, but I couldn't phrase it properly. You sir have nailed it

 

[GhostWriter16]

Seriously, I don't get why these politicians think that forcing people to kill for the military against their will is OK. Can you imagine what would happen to war if the POLITICIANS had to go first?