Congrats to the newest European State

[Winner]

Yeah, and what about us? Nearly a million of us fleed from out homes towards Albania and Macedonia and i find this funny:

"Albanians made one of the biggests ethnic cleansing in Balkans"

Why are you rolling your eyes? The expulsion of 200,000 Serbs and destruction of incalculable cultural heritage of the Orthodox church is OK?

You fled your homes. Well, that's your problem. It was your call, the fact that you panicked doesn't justify what you did after you came back, does it?

I find this very hard to belive without proof.

On the other way, whats the point of this? 200000 fleed form here but nearly half of them have returned now and yet more will but many dont want, why? Well, its not like they are frightened but its the fact that they find it much more easy to live in Serbia than Kosovo, life standards are higher and they dont want to come back here because they find it hard to accept that we have the same rights now, not like before the war and we are the dominating population, no more Serbian Police or whatever.

No. They tried to come back, but after another riots, they were expelled again, you should know that better than I do, right? They now live only in certain parts of Kosovo under KFOR protection.

I don't deny the fact that Milosevic regime hasn't been very kind, but your recent action are totally deplorable. You can't expect you'll get independence and any right to finish that ethnic cleansing.

 

[Kosez]

I don't know if you people can understand the need of Montenegrins to separate from Serbia. Montenegro has at least thousand years of statehood, long and heroic history. They may speak same language, their culture may be similar, etc..., but they were independent in history and there is no reason why they should not be know, if they like.
Balkan wars are over. Period. No matter what you think and no matter how bad reputation Balkan has earned in recent and not so recent history, this region is no longer a barrel of gunpowder. If I'm wrong (only future will tell) you may shave my ass and call me Joe!

 

[Winner]

You do realize there are people out there who do share views that certain lands should be theres because their ethnic group inhabitated it in the past?

I'd rather hear it from a Serb than a Czech to believe that Serbs are saying that. And as for the unwanted settlers part, that's your own opinion.

Well, then go and ask some.

Forcing people to move isn't ethnic cleansing.

Yes, it is. Ethnic cleansing is simply making some territory ethnically pure. That's what the Albanians did by removing the Serb minority. You probably think that ethnic cleansing is done only by physical extermination of the other people, but that is not true. In fact, Serbs always preferred to expell their "enemies", rather than kill them. It is faster and less expensive.

They were allowed to return after the war.

Yeah, sure Wake up, we're talking about Kosovo. That's in Balkans, not in Canada. Formally, they can return, but in fact, KFOR doesn't have enough soldiers to protect every Serbian house. They protect certain parts, usually with Serbian majority, from outer attacks, but Serbs returning to predominantly Albanian regions are risking their lives. That's the reality in today's Kosovo.

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word genocide before using it again.

Few thousands? Try a hundred thousand and a couple of mass graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_war#Criticism_of_the_Case_for_War

Funny, did you read that article? It is in fact criticizing the Allied claims that a genocide was taking place in Kosovo. Claims that hundreds of thousands of people died are totally exagerrated.

So far, as from May 15 2000, the ICRC has gathered and recorded the following information on missing persons:

Persons reported as unaccounted for during the Kosovo crisis
01.01.98 to 15.05.2000


Total number of requests received from families: 4,941
Total number of persons whose fate has been clarified: 1,573
of which:

confirmed dead: 199
confirmed alive: 1,374 of which:

visited in prison: 1,306
Total number of persons that remain unaccounted for: 3,368
of which:

persons reportedly arrested by the Yugoslav Armed and Security Forces or abducted by Serb civilians: 2,018

persons reportedly abducted by the Kosovo Liberation Army or Kosovo Albanian civilians: 370

persons for whom there is no information on whereabouts: 980

Source: http://www.balkanpeace.org/monitor/mgen30.html

 

[Winner]

I don't know if you people can understand the need of Montenegrins to separate from Serbia. Montenegro has at least thousand years of statehood, long and heroic history. They may speak same language, their culture may be similar, etc..., but they were independent in history and there is no reason why they should not be know, if they like.

Exactly. It's strange nobody seems to be concerned with Luxembourg's independence...

Balkan wars are over. Period. No matter what you think and no matter how bad reputation Balkan has earned in recent and not so recent history, this region is no longer a barrel of gunpowder. If I'm wrong (only future will tell) you may shave my ass and call me Joe!

I am afraid you'Re being too optimistic. The situation in Macedonia and Kosovo is still potentially explosive.

 

[blackheart]

Well, then go and ask some.

I'll walk on over to Serbia.

Yes, it is. Ethnic cleansing is simply making some territory ethnically pure. That's what the Albanians did by removing the Serb minority. You probably think that ethnic cleansing is done only by physical extermination of the other people, but that is not true. In fact, Serbs always preferred to expell their "enemies", rather than kill them. It is faster and less expensive.

And they're allowed back in...

Yeah, sure Wake up, we're talking about Kosovo. That's in Balkans, not in Canada. Formally, they can return, but in fact, KFOR doesn't have enough soldiers to protect every Serbian house. They protect certain parts, usually with Serbian majority, from outer attacks, but Serbs returning to predominantly Albanian regions are risking their lives. That's the reality in today's Kosovo.

I know where Kosovo is.

So you admit they can return? Whether or not they're secure is an entirely different issure. You know what else is a reality? There's violence in the region caused by both sides, something that you seem to make out to be only caused by Albanians.

Funny, did you read that article? It is in fact criticizing the Allied claims that a genocide was taking place in Kosovo. Claims that hundreds of thousands of people died are totally exagerrated.

I misread that part. Nonetheless, there still was a genocide.

 

[Winner]

I'll walk on over to Serbia.

Well, there is an usefull tool to do that without moving from your chair, actually. It is called Internet and I am sure you heard about it

I know where Kosovo is.

So you admit they can return? Whether or not they're secure is an entirely different issure. You know what else is a reality? There's violence in the region caused by both sides, something that you seem to make out to be only caused by Albanians.

What exactly is so hard for you to understand? Formally yes, they are allowed to return. In reality, they can't. See that difference? No? Okay, I'll try to demonstrate it on an example: in Soviet Union, human rights were formally protected. But in fact, it was a totalitarian regime where people's rights were virtually non-existent.

There is a huge difference between what is on paper and what is real.

I misread that part. Nonetheless, there still was a genocide.

Yes, after the Albanians started killing and expelling Serbs. I am glad you admit that.

 

[The Yankee]

Moderator Action: Does anyone mind getting back on topic? This thread is no longer about Montenegro. Do not be the one to convince me to close the thread and issue warnings and/or bans.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[warpus]

Who cares how many countries there are in Europe? Personally I don't - as long as it's stable.

 

[Srdjan]

That's not a matter of freedom. That's a matter of domination.

If all those Balkanic conflicts were about freedom, Yugoslavia would still be one country, simply divided in autonomous regions. The thing is that Yugoslavia was seen as the domination of Serbians on others. However, the others aren't innocent victims, and they also want to dominate the others, that's what they do in their smaller independent territories.

It's somewhere very similar to what is happening in Iraq. It's not because Saddam has slaughtered shiites that shiites thrive less domination than sunnis.

In few sentences, ultimate truths reveal.


About Montenegro: Come on people. In reality, nothing has changed because Montenegro gained their independence again. They still will come to Serbia to work or get education, and we will still spend our summer holidays in Montenegro. Maybe it’s better this way.


To Winner:
Take it easy man. You can’t change some things over the night.