Congrats to the newest European State

[tomsnowman123]

Great.... another unsignificant micro-country in Eastern Europe.

Now I guess Kosovo will become independent, and then Transylvania, Vojvodina, the Hungarian part of Slovakia, western half of Ukraine, ...

This continual movement towards globalization is not a good thing at all.

 

[Kyriakos]

Apart from Kossovo, the only part that Serbia still has from the terrotories it gained after its first independence from the Ottoman Empire, is Voivodina.
No other country in the region has had similar reductions in size, although the other two main balcan powers (Greece and Bulgaria) had at some point lost considerable territories (Bulgaria in Macedonia and northern black sea coastal areas, and Greece in Thrace and the part of Asia minor which it had got in the Sevres treaty in 1920).

But Serbia has already lost all of the land it conquered in the two balcan wars (by the independence of Fyr Macedonia, and the international protectorate state of Kossovo).

Iirc the serbian run part of Bosnia might be united with Serbia in the future?


edit: here is a map of Europe, where i have coloured Montenegro (light blue) and Kossovo (deep blue) and also drawn the province border of Voivodina.

 

[Comraddict]

I don't get it how somebody can put Montenegro in Eastern Europe. Just look at the map.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I don't get it how somebody can put Montenegro in Eastern Europe. Just look at the map.

Western and Eastern Europe remains in many people's mind as being apart from the former Iron curtain.

You're indeed right. Montenegro is technically in the Balkans. It has other specificities actually. As many neighbours, Montenegro isn't homogenous ethnically speaking, however, there's a lot less tensions among the different communities there once we compare with Macedonia, Bosnia or, even worst, Kosovo.

Sincerly speaking, there were no real reasons to for a split-up between Montenegro and Serbia. Both Serbians and Montenegrins share the same language and the same religion. Of course, there are cultural differences and it exists a genuine Montenegrin identity, but I would say that it's a bit as if Bavaria would split up from Germany or if Provence would split up from France. To put it in a nutshell, we shouldn't exagerate the differences between Serbia and Montenegro.

Now this be said, their independence is not such a big deal. I'm glad for them. I simply believe it could have worked if they would have stayed together, but of course it will certainly work if they are apart !

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Hmm. 55% seems far too low a level for such a change. I know how many protestants in Northern Ireland worry about this sort of thing (the birth rate in the catholic - and thus, broadly, pro-integration with the Irish Republic - community is much higher. Sooner or later there will be more catholics than protestants in Nortehrn Ireland - should that automatically mean that it switches from the UK to the Republic ?), and such a significant change based on a 5:4 majority seems asking for trouble. Wonder how the Yanks would feel if California decided to secede in a decade's time based on a majority vote from its Mexican and Hispanic population ?

And then there's the Montenegran Prime Minister's reassuring words:

"Heading off fears that property might be seized, Montenegro has already adopted a declaration guaranteeing Serbian citizens in Montenegro all the rights they have enjoyed to date and "this offer still stands", the prime minister added.

The "offer still stands" ? It makes it sound like a supermarket offer, or a car sale, being extended for an extra couple of months. The only Serbian I know with family in Montenegro got quite understandably worried by this reassurance....

 

[Kyriakos]

Imo the problem isnt so much the actual size of the country (or its mineral & other wealth, with which i am not familiar) but the very small size of the population. Around 620.000 people are too few in relation to the populations of the bordering countries, and if one doesnt count Serbia (around 9 mil iirc) which isnt hostile, there is Kossovo with around 2 mil, and Albania with something over 3 mil.
If there is a similar influx of albanians in Montenegro that there has been in other regions surrounding Albania, there may be a problem (as in the case of FYR Macedonia where the albanian population caused a change to the country's constitution which now names "Albanian" as one of the two "founding nationalities" of that country (!) ).

With this i am not claiming that there exists some albanian master-plan to create a "greater Albania", but due to the nature of the region (Kossovo bordering) various independant political groups with similar agendas could create troubles.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Hmm. 55% seems far too low a level for such a change. I know how many protestants in Northern Ireland worry about this sort of thing (the birth rate in the catholic - and thus, broadly, pro-integration with the Irish Republic - community is much higher. Sooner or later there will be more catholics than protestants in Nortehrn Ireland - should that automatically mean that it switches from the UK to the Republic ?), and such a significant change based on a 5:4 majority seems asking for trouble. Wonder how the Yanks would feel if California decided to secede in a decade's time based on a majority vote from its Mexican and Hispanic population ?

Montenegrins are Orthodox, just like Serbians.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Imo the problem isnt so much the actual size of the country (or its mineral & other wealth, with which i am not familiar) but the very small size of the population. Around 620.000 people are too few in relation to the populations of the bordering countries, and if one doesnt count Serbia (around 9 mil iirc) which isnt hostile, there is Kossovo with around 2 mil, and Albania with something over 3 mil.
If there is a similar influx of albanians in Montenegro that there has been in other regions surrounding Albania, there may be a problem (as in the case of FYR Macedonia where the albanian population caused a change to the country's constitution which now names "Albanian" as one of the two "founding nationalities" of that country (!) ).

With this i am not claiming that there exists some albanian master-plan to create a "greater Albania", but due to the nature of the region (Kossovo bordering) various independant political groups with similar agendas could create troubles.

I fully agree with that. If Kosovo becomes independent, I bet that 10 years after they would want to join Albania... and that will create pressures on neighbouring countries hosting Albanian communities.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Montenegrins are Orthodox, just like Serbians.

Sure, I realise. I wasn't being very clear though, by throwing the N Irish reference in, and probably ended up conflating or appearing to conflate the (separate) Kosovan issue. My bad.

I was more trying to get at the fact that a decision to secede is probably a one way journey, and given the impact it has for generations, I'd have thought it more reasonable to look for a much more significant majority than just 5:4.

 

[Winner]

The argument of "who was there first" doesnt work. Period.

It does, period.

And BTW, he was referring to the Illyrians as the ancestors of Albanians.

Allright, then I guess the Italians should claim the whole Mediterranean as heirs of Roman empire

Get a grip. I am saying here that Serbs have strong feelings about Kosovo and they are not going to leave it, no matter who lives there today. Jerusalem was held by Arabs or Turks for centuries, yet the Israelis now have it.

From Serbian point of view (and that is what matters in this discussion), the Albanians are just unwanted settlers who were moved there by their conquerors. And they are right.

What genocide?

The mass expulsion of the Serbian population after the "liberation" of Kosovo by NATO forces. Albanians made one of the biggests ethnic cleansing in Balkans, over 200,000 Serbs were forced to leave their homes.

Since when did ant-"terrorist" operations have genocide as a viable tactic. And I use the words terrorist loosely here.

Err, what genocide? According to the UN or NATO surveys, the death toll among Albanians was minimal. In fact, Serbs killed much less people during their operations than you did when you bombed Serbia. Even if we use the most pessimistic results, "only" few thousands of Albanians were killed. What is the death toll among civilians in Iraq? 30,000? So you admit you're commiting a genocide in Iraq? I guess not.

 

[Winner]

With this i am not claiming that there exists some albanian master-plan to create a "greater Albania", but due to the nature of the region (Kossovo bordering) various independant political groups with similar agendas could create troubles.

Independence of Kosovo would be a fine example for the Macedonian Albanians: just rebel, kill, torture and terrorize long enough, and you will become independent. They would say something like this: "if the Kosovar Albanians can be independent, why not us?" What would we tell them?

 

[HannibalBarka]

I fully agree with that. If Kosovo becomes independent, I bet that 10 years after they would want to join Albania... and that will create pressures on neighbouring countries hosting Albanian communities.

I don't understand you Marla. If the inhabitant of Kosovo vote for independance from Serbia than years later vote for "merging" with Albania, why shouldn't they have the right to do so? Aren't people supposed to decide for themselves?

 

[deo]

It does, period.

Allright, then I guess the Italians should claim the whole Mediterranean as heirs of Roman empire

Allright, the byzantines were here first

Get a grip. I am saying here that Serbs have strong feelings about Kosovo and they are not going to leave it, no matter who lives there today. Jerusalem was held by Arabs or Turks for centuries, yet the Israelis now have it.

Good point but this is like the Israelis were the Albanians Kosovo was held by the serbs for centuries (and the ottomans too) but we were here before them.

From Serbian point of view (and that is what matters in this discussion), the Albanians are just unwanted settlers who were moved there by their conquerors. And they are right.

Tell me where did you get this.

The mass expulsion of the Serbian population after the "liberation" of Kosovo by NATO forces. Albanians made one of the biggests ethnic cleansing in Balkans, over 200,000 Serbs were forced to leave their homes.

Yeah, and what about us? Nearly a million of us fleed from out homes towards Albania and Macedonia and i find this funny:

"Albanians made one of the biggests ethnic cleansing in Balkans"

Err, what genocide? According to the UN or NATO surveys, the death toll among Albanians was minimal. In fact, Serbs killed much less people during their operations than you did when you bombed Serbia. Even if we use the most pessimistic results, "only" few thousands of Albanians were killed. What is the death toll among civilians in Iraq? 30,000? So you admit you're commiting a genocide in Iraq? I guess not.

I find this very hard to belive without proof.

On the other way, whats the point of this? 200000 fleed form here but nearly half of them have returned now and yet more will but many dont want, why? Well, its not like they are frightened but its the fact that they find it much more easy to live in Serbia than Kosovo, life standards are higher and they dont want to come back here because they find it hard to accept that we have the same rights now, not like before the war and we are the dominating population, no more Serbian Police or whatever.

 

[mrtn]

What genocide?

The mass expulsion of the Serbian population after the "liberation" of Kosovo by NATO forces. Albanians made one of the biggests ethnic cleansing in Balkans, over 200,000 Serbs were forced to leave their homes.

Winner, you should look up the meaning of the word genocide.

 

[deo]

Independence of Kosovo would be a fine example for the Macedonian Albanians: just rebel, kill, torture and terrorize long enough, and you will become independent. They would say something like this: "if the Kosovar Albanians can be independent, why not us?" What would we tell them?

Trust me, they wont, why should they? What will independence birng them? Freedom? They have it alredy, rights? they have it too, so what?

 

[Marla_Singer]

I don't understand you Marla. If the inhabitant of Kosovo vote for independance from Serbia than years later vote for "merging" with Albania, why shouldn't they have the right to do so? Aren't people supposed to decide for themselves?

Of course HannibalBarka, but you obviously underestimate the complexity of the Balkans.

If the people decide that a minority should be slaughtered, it would be the people will, but should they have the right to do so ? I doubt. That's all a matter of Human Rights.

Kosovo isn't 100% Albanian, there are strong Serbian communities in that region. If the Kosovo decide to merge with Albania, what would be the effect on Serbian Kosovars ? Furthermore, it could incite other Albanian communities, in Macedonia, Serbia or Montenegro, to also join the Greater Albania being created. The problem is that Albanians are minority in those places, and the patchwork of community is so diverse that you can't create clear borders between Albanians, Serbians, Montenegrins and so on and so forth. All this to say that a merger of Kosovo and Albania would undoubtedly create new tensions in the region... and risks of war would be important.

As you see, it's far to be as simple as it may sound.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Trust me, they wont, why should they? What will independence birng them? Freedom? They have it alredy, rights? they have it too, so what?

That's not a matter of freedom. That's a matter of domination.

If all those Balkanic conflicts were about freedom, Yugoslavia would still be one country, simply divided in autonomous regions. The thing is that Yugoslavia was seen as the domination of Serbians on others. However, the others aren't innocent victims, and they also want to dominate the others, that's what they do in their smaller independent territories.

It's somewhere very similar to what is happening in Iraq. It's not because Saddam has slaughtered shiites that shiites thrive less domination than sunnis.

 

[blackheart]

It does, period.

Doesn't work in America, Brazil, Israel, etc. It doesn't matter who was here first, it matters who has the power to stay there now.

Allright, then I guess the Italians should claim the whole Mediterranean as heirs of Roman empire

Get a grip. I am saying here that Serbs have strong feelings about Kosovo and they are not going to leave it, no matter who lives there today. Jerusalem was held by Arabs or Turks for centuries, yet the Israelis now have it.

You do realize there are people out there who do share views that certain lands should be theres because their ethnic group inhabitated it in the past?

From Serbian point of view (and that is what matters in this discussion), the Albanians are just unwanted settlers who were moved there by their conquerors. And they are right.

I'd rather hear it from a Serb than a Czech to believe that Serbs are saying that. And as for the unwanted settlers part, that's your own opinion.

The mass expulsion of the Serbian population after the "liberation" of Kosovo by NATO forces. Albanians made one of the biggests ethnic cleansing in Balkans, over 200,000 Serbs were forced to leave their homes.

Forcing people to move isn't ethnic cleansing. They were allowed to return after the war.

Err, what genocide? According to the UN or NATO surveys, the death toll among Albanians was minimal. In fact, Serbs killed much less people during their operations than you did when you bombed Serbia. Even if we use the most pessimistic results, "only" few thousands of Albanians were killed. What is the death toll among civilians in Iraq? 30,000? So you admit you're commiting a genocide in Iraq? I guess not.

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word genocide before using it again.

Few thousands? Try a hundred thousand and a couple of mass graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_war#Criticism_of_the_Case_for_War

 

[Winner]

I don't understand you Marla. If the inhabitant of Kosovo vote for independance from Serbia than years later vote for "merging" with Albania, why shouldn't they have the right to do so? Aren't people supposed to decide for themselves?

No. There is no single country on this planet, that would allow any group on its territory to secede whenever they wish.

 

[Winner]

Winner, you should look up the meaning of the word genocide.

I did, now it's your turn.