Conquests 01: Final Spoiler

[AlanH]

@mauer: as Scout says, read and learn from the greats here. Spamming your TDG is frowned upon, because we need to let the pros do the teaching and avoid sending you guys confusing messages.

 

[ainwood]

@mauer: as Scout says, read and learn from the greats here. Spamming your TDG is frowned upon, because we need to let the pros do the teaching and avoid sending you guys confusing messages.

In danger of dragging this thread off-topic, but...

We have a training game discussion thread in the GOTM Staff forum, and I've asked the staff to offer their insights there as well. There are always many, many different options for each game, and we're trying to keep the discussions focused. However, I always welcome people to contribute via PM, to either myself or the participants.

 

[Detlef Richter]

Detlef: sorry to hear (and see) about your unfortunate loss. If Histographic victory at 2050 is what you wanted to play for, you need to have more Irrigated squares and less Mined. Happy citizens is the most important part of a high score; the more citizens to make happy, the better. Your cities are widely spaced with little competition for space; many should be +30 in size. That would give you a higher score. I also see unused Floodplains squares in your picture; those also help considerably in getting a large number of citizens.

Good luck in COTM2!

Which is the time to swap from mined to irrigated land??

 

[AlanH]

Switching between mines and irrigation can happen several times in a game.

To maximise almost everything, including score, you really need to emphasise population at all stages of the game. Population is power, in the words of Cracker, so while cities can grow you should give them as much food as possible. There's an interesting article by Trip on the power of food here

Before you get out of Despotism there are only certain tiles that benefit from irrigation. When you move to Republic or Monarchy you should consider irrigating mined grassland to grow cities faster.

At each stage in the game you will have certain limits on the population level you can achieve in various cities. Before Sanitation these are usually 6 or 12 depending on whether the city is on fresh water or has an aqueduct. Once you reach Sanitation you can build Hospitals and your water-supplied cities can grow again.

As a generalisation, while a city can grow you should irrigate its tiles to get it to as much surplus fpt as possible without waste. Numbers like 4 fpt, 7 fpt (without a granary), 5 fpt, 10 fpt are good. Once it reaches its current population limit you should rework its terrain to maximise its shield production and reduce its surplus food to a minimum. The exception is those cities where you are still producing workers or settlers.

So if we look at a town founded in Despotism that needs an aqueduct it will start off with mined grassland. When you revolt from Despotism, and if it hasn't reached pop 6 yet, you will irrigate its grass. When it reaches pop 6 you will mine it again until it builds an aqueduct. Then you may irrigate it again to boost it to pop 12, then mine it again until you get Sanitation and a Hospital, and finally irrigate it again to grow it to whatever population it can achieve.

 

[Detlef Richter]

Switching between mines and irrigation can happen several times in a game.

To maximise almost everything, including score, you really need to emphasise population at all stages of the game. Population is power, in the words of Cracker, so while cities can grow you should give them as much food as possible. There's an interesting article by Trio on the power of food here

Before you get out of Despotism there are only certain tiles that benefit from irrigation. When you move to Republic or Monarchy you should consider irrigating mined grassland to grow cities faster.

At each stage in the game you will have certain limits on the population level you can achieve in various cities. Before Sanitation these are usually 6 or 12 depending on whether the city is on fresh water or has an aqueduct. Once you reach Sanitation you can build Hospitals and your water-supplied cities can grow again.

As a generalisation, while a city can grow you should irrigate its tiles to get it to as much surplus fpt as possible without waste. Numbers like 4 fpt, 5 fpt, 10 fpt are good. Once it reaches its current population limit you should rework its terrain to maximise its shield production and reduce its surplus food to a minimum. The exception is those cities where you are still producing workers or settlers.

So if we look at a town founded in Despotism that needs an aqueduct it will start off with mined grassland. When you revolt from Despotism, and if it hasn't reached pop 6 yet, you will irrigate its grass. When it reaches pop 6 you will mine it again until it builds an aqueduct. Then you may irrigate it again to boost it to pop 12, then mine it again until you get Sanitation and a Hospital, and finally irrigate it again to grow it to whatever population it can achieve.

Thanks AlanH, i try it out.

 

[Drazek]

Which is the time to swap from mined to irrigated land??

AlanH's reply was to the point. Also, the key here is to have enough workers. One of the reasons AI plays so badly is that it never has enough workers. You should have at least as much workers as you have cities. Qitai's good rule is that if a town has grown to the max pop with max food or its citizens are working on an unimproved tile, produce a worker. You can also join maxed town workers to smaller towns to get them grow faster thus getting more points earlier.

 

[AlanH]

I've edited it slightly since you read and quoted it. I've included now a reference to an article on food and power, and I've adjusted the 'good' fpt list. This is a complex subject, so my summary is full of major generalisations, but I hope it gives you some 'food for thought' .

 

[civ_steve]

Detlef: I do not manage my irrigations and mines as much as AlanH has listed as optimal. That requires a lot of management, and is perhaps too much to be concerned with initially. In Despotism I'll definitely Mine grassland. After becoming a Republic (or Monarchy) I tend to Irrigate Bonus Grasslands (those with a shield), and Mine regular Grasslands, but I rarely change a tile I've already improved. This assures that I receive the +1 Shield benefit of my Golden Age in more of my tiles. After my Golden Age I usually convert all Grasslands to Irrigation, at some point; usually after I've mined all Hills/Mountains that the city can use. In PTW it never made sense to Mine the spaces of faraway cities at any time; you never saw the improved production! So I would improved faraway cities last, and always Irrigate; food is not subject to Waste or Corruption. (I think this has changed in Conquests, you do eventually get some production in non-core cities, but I would still focus on core cities first.)

Lots of Workers is a good thing; Qitai's rule is a good one; managing all these improvements is not trivial, which is why I don't go crazy doing them. (I don't have that much time, and I'd like to finish a game and submit it more than trying to play it perfectly.) Good Luck!

 

[AlanH]

@civ_steve: Neither do I Everyone has a different pain threshold for micro-managment, so I figured I'd better provide the full story. And, yes, it's never worth mining totally corrupt cities unless you expect to build a palace near them real soon.

The amount of management effort would be significantly less if the game didn't insist on asking you to confirm every time you ask any worker to redevelop a tile. That's a real pain. Is it the same in C3C, with no preference option to disable it?

 

[scoutsout]

@ Detlef: my approach is probably less than optimal, but it's fairly straightforward. I simply try to position and develop cities to grow to size 12. This is one reason I like the fact that RCP is out with C3C - I can choose city sites based on terrain considerations, rather than the RCP model. If moving a site one tile to put it next to fresh water makes sense, then that's where it goes.

After Despotism, I will start with the cities that have hills and mountains within their radius. These will get grassland irrigated first, so that citizens can be placed on the food deficient mountains and hills... (some of these may have floodplains that were irrigated in Despotism... the ones without floodplains get treated first...) Cities that are nearly all grassland or plains will generally get left alone until later... On getting more workers: If a city without an aqueduct gets to size 6, I'll pop out a worker before starting on the duct if I don't have workers nearby... A size 12 city can likewise pop a worker between improvement or unit builds...

The stuff that the stronger players have stated is probably better advice, but for where you are in your game, try focusing on growing cities to size 12. If milking after than point, build hospitals and irrigate anything that can be irrigated.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

The amount of management effort would be significantly less if the game didn't insist on asking you to confirm every time you ask any worker to redevelop a tile. That's a real pain. Is it the same in C3C, with no preference option to disable it?

Yes, it is the same unfortunately.

 

[bed_head7]

This is my first game of the month, and currently I am in the milking stage, irrigating all my squares as advised above. I am proud of myself for actually realizing that on my own (I didn't know exactly how score was calculated before this game, other than more people and more land helped it), since I have been using so many ideas I have read about in the forum the last couple of weeks, and thinking "Why didn't that ever occur to me?" It looks like my score will end within 500 of the 5000 mark, which would be a new high for me, whether it be 500 above or 500 below. My only concern is that culture will hit 100,000 too soon, and cost me some points, or that I accidentally hit 66%. Right now, I am very very carefully working my way from 64% to 65%, and watching culture growth carefully, because I will probably be destroying libraries everywhere pretty soon, to get as close as I can to 2050. It is a bummer, because now I will miss out on the extra quarter point I would have gotten from learning future techs.

Playing this has taught me a lot, and I look forward to even more improvement on the deserted island start we get next game. Thanks to all of those with so much to teach.

 

[Dianthus]

@samildanach: You can disband KTs for shields. You really should try Dianthus' latest version of MapStat. It includes trading features now (workers for sale, new techs...) and yes, it will alert you if you have a pending riot problem.

Man I might as well let it play the game. Thanks.

It's still not quite Dianthus (read fool ) proof. I managed to accidentally trigger a Domination victory when I was going for Space Race (after only getting 2/4 votes for Diplomacy ). Still, finishing a day or two early will give me some time to do a spoiler write-up...

 

[samildanach]

It's still not quite Dianthus proof.

I bash square pegs into round holes with what some describe as religious zeal. I feel a bit sorry for people like you who write nice utlities only for people like me to get their hands on them and do bad things to them....things that no normal person would do. (Eh! What happened to the Mwahhhaaahaaa smilie?)

I managed to accidentally trigger a Domination victory when I was going for Space Race (after only getting 2/4 votes for Diplomacy ).

Bad luck on losing out on the vote. Accidentally tripping domination is generally good thing for me because I'm such a poor milker. The longer I play the lower my score is going to be regardless of victory condition. It may have been a blessing in disguise as far your eventual score is concerned.

 

[LeSphinx]

I finish my game bu cultural 100k in 1946AD!
So I have a little 4741 civ3 COC score and a 6080 Jason score! Snif. it's not my best. but well, I had fun playing to this COTM1.
As I planned to finish it by Space Race around 2045 AD in order to milk my game but I forget to keep an eye on the cultural score!
AS do you do guys in order to not win by cultural 100K and to keep people happy without Temple+coloseum+Cathedral+ Library and University for the science aspect?
Thanks
LeSphinx

 

[a space oddity]

...
AS do you do guys in order to not win by cultural 100K and to keep people happy without Temple+coloseum+Cathedral+ Library and University for the science aspect?

Key to this is having a combination of small cities and really big ones. In the latter the specialists keep the people happy. Also you will have all the lux available after the conquest phase, helped by markets this will do a lot to keep people happy. With the AI gone you don't need to spend any money on defense. Science isn't really nescessary either. Having said that, the new science specialist will do most of the work. I cruised to the tech needed for Mass Transport to get rid of the population induced pollution.

 

[civ_steve]

...
AS do you do guys in order to not win by cultural 100K and to keep people happy without Temple+coloseum+Cathedral+ Library and University for the science aspect?
...

Sorry about the unwanted 100K victory, LeSphinx. I attempted to milk for Gotm29 (I think, the Egyptian one), and triggered an unintended Domination win by missing a cultural building. (In retrospect, I could check the F5 list to make sure I didn't have any undesired cultural buildings in any of my cities.)

Anyway, 8 Luxuries + a Marketplace means Temples/Colloseums/Cathedrals and Luxury Tax are not needed! You can have at most 20 citizens working your tiles (Specialists are always considered Content); 8 luxuries and Marketplace give you 20 happy faces, which means 10 Happy Citizens, 1 Content and 9 Unhappy under Empereor/Deity (11 Happy/9 Unhappy with lower levels). Cities stay under control. Higher population cities are actually happier than lower population, if you form Entertainers.

Libraries/Universities/ResearchLabs are okay in interior cities, as long as you don't have a whole bunch of them. (That's to avoid passing the Domination limit; these cities can culturally expand and you don't gain any territory.) I haven't played around much with the new Specialists; I did form a lot of Taxmen in my corrupt cities which really helped my income.

Use the F5 screen to see which city has cultural buildings and sell off ones you don't need/want.

 

[Lord Jimbob]

I have been away from school for the last month and using my fiancee's antiquated and infected computer, but I finally finished the game in 1856AD via a culture 20K in the Hittite capitol. I figured the Hittites were about the worst civ to try for 20K, so it would be a challenge. The tech cost glitch kept AI research to a manageable pace, so that was an added bonus.

I moved my settler east and downriver and found the floodplains- my capitol site seemed like a good mix of food and shields, so I decided to make it my wonder city after I failed to get any settlers from goody huts.

Wars
I took out the Arabs as fast as I could, then had a couple of wars to end the Babylonians, and waited until cavalry to roll over the sumerians. Unfortunately I didn’t get a single leader during the extensive war w/sumeria, and I used my 1 leader from the Arab war to make an army so I could build the Heroic Epic and pentagon early. The Portuguese were pretty close in power to me, w/the Koreans down to 1 city thanks to the Chinese, so after they declared on me (because I wouldn't give them contact w/sumeria), I basked in war weariness for what felt like 1000 years until the end of the game. Eventually I sent over 3 tank armies to raze Portugal's core cities, and prevent them from accumulating SS parts, although that never became a threat since the tech pace was so slow.

Wonders
I started w/the pyramids, and got the Mausoleum and Oracle before snagging the GL. I waited (and waited…) for the AI civs to do some research for me, but started running out of wonders to build, and wanted to get the show on the road, so I researched education myself and eventually entered the modern age before they even got out of middle ages. Since I didn't have to worry about competition for wonders, I went straight for free artistry and Shakespeare's after getting Bach's to get my pop up to 20 and increase production. IIRC I tried to get to steam power and industrialization ASAP, but I guess I got there a little too quick, because I ran out of wonders to build in the industrial era and spent ~15-20 turns building commercial improvements, a hospital (to head off disease) and some tanks before the UN came around.

I had trouble shifting to my desktop to capture screen shots and a turn log, so I won’t bore you with any more details… at least until COTM2!

 

[Email10]

Maybe I get to share the fastest 20K-award with Jimbob this month if a faster one doesn't come up

Tarsus reached 20K in the year of 1856 AD.

At 250 AD I had captured my island. I started with the Arabs and killed them off with Swordsmen and the Babs and Sumerians was history once I got my Knights. These wars netted me one Leader which I used to form an Army.

I was not happy with the placement of Tarsus, since I had problems to grow bigger than size 12 (see my Ancient Age post). Once I reached the Industrial Age though I got Steam Power from Korea. Within 2 turns all tiles outside of Tarsus had railroads and when I finished the Shakespears Theatre, rushed factory and coal plant, Tarsus was a very nice city. After this I got all wonders except Newtons which I missed due to a Wonder Cascade.

After building up my island I sent my Knights to conquer China. Portugal declared war just when I researched Military Tradition and my Knights were quickly upgraded to Cavalry to take care of the Portuguese. Around 1400 I had reached 64% land area and I stayed at 64-65% for the rest of the game, destroying cities instead of capturing them. I kept Zulus and Korea in the game.

While Tarsus was approaching 20K I kept an eye on my whole civ Culture which was quickly approaching 100K. Some calculations told me that I would reach 100K before Tarsus hit 20K so I sold off a lot of Temples in cities that anyway had full happiness. I also sold off some Libraries that I had built on the other continent. They didn't provide much help anyway. I also build all space parts (1 turn left on the last one) and had the UN so I guess I could have managed almost all Victory conditions about the same time as my 20K if I had been careful, but I was not sure how the new Submission script would have handled this, since I wanted my 20K.

Thanks for a nice game! That start provided a lot of challenge and as can be seen in the spoiler threads, a lot of different paths could be chosen from that start. The 20K-path that I chose was maybe the least obvious choice, since there was very few good spots for a 20K city, but I had already decided before the game that I would go for it.

 

[a space oddity]

Well played, Email10!

And you're right to think that the script indeed doesn't recognise more than 1 victory type (correct me if I'm wrong, Alan).