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Consequences of 1UPT removal/stack-reinstroduction

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by KeldorKatarn, Dec 12, 2010.

  1. KeldorKatarn

    KeldorKatarn Chieftain

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    Since people still seem to discuss 1UPT as a realistic choice I thought it might be worthwile to actually discuss what the consequences would be.

    • Complete rewrite of tactical combat
    • Complete rewrite of the tactical AI
    • Partial rewrite of the strategic AI
    • Complete overhaul of the combat UI
    • Complete rewrite of the combat tutorial
    • Re-recording of relevant tutorial audio voiceovers (in all languages)
    • Partial rewrite of the map logic to enable the presence of more than 1 ground combat unit per tile
    • Complete rewrite of naval and air attacks on tiles occupied by units
    • Complete rewrite of city attack logic
    • Complete re-balance of tactical combat
    • New closed beta test of the entire combat feature
    • Devastating marketing effects due to complete trashing of major feature that had been announced nearly rigth from the start
    • Major loss of believablility of the main designer
    • Major uproar of the players who actually love 1UPT

    Considering the time and money necessary to do all that, I just thought it might be worth thinking about this before asking for stacks in Civ V again...

    From my point of view a stack-combat discussion for Civ VI is worthwile. One for Civ V is totally useless. That's only MY opinion of course, so this thread is not meant as a "STOP DISCUSSING THIS" statement, just as a possible eye-opener.
     
  2. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    As i said earlier in other threads the only (probable, IMHO) solution to the 1upT controversy is a transitional movements principle that uses all 12 directions from the hex instead of the limiting default 6 **during** tactical deployment for pre-battle & optimal path seeking by any sizeable groups of Units -- this can also be done without having to extensively modify any in-code routines & functions.

    Indirectly, this idea is a bit like what we see for built Wonders around our Cities; culps & corners are being used to locate items on a map.

    ZoC ruleset can also account for clug restrictions when units move towards longer distances since they'd then have a corresponding range capacity. No more (what i dubbed) snaky curving waves path for cavalry for example by moving straight on edge lines between two hexes.
    Heck, even Units could stand on such lines & corners; overlap might not look nice but cows & horses do it -- why not Units... if only for efficient (as in MUCH LESS cumbersome) deployment.
     
  3. KeldorKatarn

    KeldorKatarn Chieftain

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    You are aware that this requires a complete path finding, map code, strategic AI, roads, worker AI, city development, tactical combat and combat AI etc rewrite?

    You're doing not less than completely changing the movement rules. Sorry but that is NOT easy to do.
     
  4. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Is it really worth it, though?
     
  5. Strategy Master

    Strategy Master Chieftain

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    From patch notes thread:

    If SOD ever returns (with no tactical battle map which i would prefer) just let the attacker choose a defender in the stack to attack, and limit the number of units in the stack that can attack per turn to 1. This results in better manouverability but no real battle advantage unless you spread your troops. And no sudden loss of all your troops in the stack on defeat. Its also fairly simple to implement rather than complex rewrites that would be better in a Civ6.

    Overall this idea allows you to stack troops but it is completly useless in combat so it indirectly forces you to go 1upt in combat situations for maximum effectiveness but with all the advantages of unit manouverability.
     
  6. mattavich

    mattavich Civ5 Fanatic

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    Personally, I would become quite disengaged with the franchise as I feel it will be a step backward if 1upt was removed.

    We're moving forward with Civ, I prefer to continue.
     
  7. lietkynes

    lietkynes Hello sword !

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    removal of 1upt = very bad
    1upt is the future
     
  8. freeluos

    freeluos Chieftain

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    There are better 1upt's around. The genre is called RTS. These games are often more complicated due to the time factor (think fast and act).

    The scale of a RTS is somewhat smaller (however can't say that for Supreme Commander FA), but with the introduction of global parameters in CIV the gap is almost gone.

    Play RTS and enjoy 1upt at best!
     
  9. charon2112

    charon2112 King

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    The solution to the 1upt problem is easy. If you don't like 1upt, then play a game that doesn't have it, like Civ IV.

    Problem solved.
     
  10. kelemvor

    kelemvor Chieftain

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    I agree, 1UPT ruined Civ but there is nothing we can do about it except play Civ IV or even better, Europa Universalis III (which makes civV look like a kids game).
     
  11. charon2112

    charon2112 King

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    I play V, and IV, and EUIII (learning EUIII is a challenge, though).
     
  12. freeluos

    freeluos Chieftain

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    It's not that the combat model for Civ IV is perfect (far from it). Look at the combat models of civ III, IV and V and it clearly shows the incompetence of the developers.

    None of them are really good (they all have big flaws). Take into account that no other parameters are involved (like weather, supplies and probably more) and the entire system feels quite empty.
     
  13. marioflag

    marioflag History Addict

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    The only solution in my opinion is to allow a limited stack of units per tile... like 5UPT. It should allow AI to protect better their ranged and artillery units with melee units.

    It would be a median line between 1UPT which is better for gameplay and stacking units in 1 tile which is better for AI.

    I'm not an AI expert though so it would be interesting to read some opinions about effectiveness of AI under a combat system which allow a limited numbers of units per tile.
     
  14. KeldorKatarn

    KeldorKatarn Chieftain

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    Did you read the original post? :rolleyes:
     
  15. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    some ppl cut their own tongue in 2 or draw a tatoo on their penis

    we dont really have to listen to them like we dont have to follow ppl who criticize 1UPT since there is no objective merit in their critics
     
  16. KeldorKatarn

    KeldorKatarn Chieftain

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    I just wanted to mention once what kind of a change they're asking since I honestly think a lot of people don't realize how big a change that would be.
     
  17. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I personally like 1UPT. The only thing I wish they'd add is UI support for stacks (even just being able to hit tab to cycle through units on a stack). There's a mod that already brought it back. Let people who one stacks use that one.
     
  18. yanr

    yanr Chieftain

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    1UPT is what actually makes me enjoy CiV far more than IV. I played IV for a bit, but I never knew what to do to in terms of making stacks, etc. With CiV, everything is very intuitive and there isn't a steep learning curve any more, making the game much more accessible.
     
  19. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    The trick with having to entirely re-code a key concept such as 1upT while aiming for coherent gameplay objectives is just that -- design choices which are either too complex or downright silly simplistic.
    What's the target audience?
    Players!
    Some are seriously involved into epic wars that never could be fast enough (sic-clugs in units pathing algorithm), others prefer the ease of use of direct 1vs1 dynamics on a map right in front of their eyes.

    Programming wise, it sure is a somehow tough contract to re-scale scope & basic principles... but to me, the whole argument stands on a single aspect; ZoC and how it currently operates.
    That's why i believe 12 directions *MAY* solve the issue.
    For a binary compile cost worth at least careful analysis.
    I might very well be wrong, too.
     
  20. Nares

    Nares Emperor

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    1upt didn't ruin CiV. Everything else did.
     

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