Constitution Discussion. Article C-E

[Provolution]

DS

not to be a pest, but as usual you forgot the Mobilization and Draft. I suggest this to be a Military decision in case of a war situation, vetoed by Domestic Office.

 

[mad-bax]

Drafting has two uses. Defence and mobilisation of shields. Drafting should go to the governors and be requested via the appropriate offices. The COA could request drafting in certain cities for defence - alternatively one governor could request a drafted unit from another governor to help rush a temple. We'll be doing a lot of this later.

Strangely enough I don't think that mobilisation is a military decision. The military will set targets for numbers of units of specific types by specific dates. If governors cannot meet these demands then they should request the mobilisation of their citizens. From whom? The Culture consul of course. Mobilisation means no culture builds and also it means culture accumulation is halved. It affects culture more than anything else.

 

[Black_Hole]

edit: sorry, laggy interent somehow posted this message 3 times...

 

[Black_Hole]

edit: sorry, laggy interent somehow posted this message 3 times...

 

[Black_Hole]

Im not a fan of the changes...
It removes disctionction between the short term and long term offices, the idea behind the alternate government... Now all of the consuls have short term responsibilities, while we also shorten the amount of tactical directors

Provolution your idea just to kill article e, is the way this is heading, but would basically turn this government into a normal one.

I would have suggested splitting commerce into 2(commerce and foreign affairs), and better defining consul jobs, not addings more.

 

[DaveShack]

Mobilization was already added to Domestic as part of the change currently being polled. Drafting (and pop rushing) has always been a touchy subject, and is normally left to the governors. FYI in the demogames I've been a part of we never reached the point where either one was actually used.

The language not being in full sentences is due mostly to lack of time, which is also what got us here to begin with. I'm still working some overtime and now we're packing to move to our new house first weekend in May.

Not changing the names at this point is a strategy to not confuse the voters who have to ratify this. We can do that (the name change, not the confusion ) at a stroke of the pen, even after nominations start as long as we provide a cheat sheet for the elections office.

"Alternative" had two meanings from the very beginning. One, I wanted something other than the 6 F-keys in the game, two I wanted more long term planning. The strategic / tactical divide doesn't really achieve the long term planning because we can't force the strategic side to stay long term. Having everything up for interpretation doesn't help. We need one person == one job, but still keep the essence of long term.

 

[Provolution]

In general, good proposal, but I like the wording in full sentences.

I. e. President is in charge of setting...

1. President, please change to Prime Minister or something British add "Secretary of Treasury" to make this title more accessible to new players

Regarding the Financial budget for the term and balancing departments, this should be done 1-2 times a term in a national budget discussion and poll, like in a real nation, a long term national budget DOES exactly that. Of course people with non-existant math skills should stay away from this post, but a large faction of the population, at least the Civ playing population in the US could handle this.

2. External Consul NOW Secretary of State (why not use the one we agreed on, the latter you posted now is not that good, in terms of language and so on)

please change the language to full sentences AND add "Trade Embargoes" in the line with the other treaties so there is no doubt they are grouped, which is a trade policy tool impacting international relations more than anything else.
State ALWAYS overrides USTR and Department of Commerce, or similar foreign affairs Depts ALWAYS override trade Depts.

2. Culture and Security Consul make this into "Secretary of the Interior"

I suggest to add location of Capital and Forbidden Palace here, as well as promoting the builds of courthouses In addition to culture wars, also observe the political stability in cities (very close to culture wars and flip risk), also watch corruption and waste, which is intrinsically linked to political stability and cultural influence.
I agree with the other changes, but letting Culture also handle corruption/waste and political security here makes this position more complete and integral, solving a new area mostly forgotten (corruption/waste) in previous constitution.
Also in charge of monitoring planting and cutting of forest maps, related to corruption and peripheral builds. I am amazed this has been ignored, even when I proposed it several times (certainly political reasons). Corruption is key to remember here.

3. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy, please "Secretary of Industry"
You asked for more catchy names right. Please add full sentences here as well.
Secretary of I decides on all trades not involving national security trades, that is trades involving other bilateral treaties covered by Secretary of State.
This will enable non-diplomatic trades to be handled here, but not mess up major diplomatic events. Add spaceship building here as well.

4. Commander, please change to "Secretary of Martial Affairs", so titles are lined up.
also exclude military escorts of settlers, we really do not need two hands on that wheel, that is plainly unnecessary and causes bad situations. (settlers restricted to one escort, if there is more escorts, then it is a military settler, for example when the settler only serves a mililtary purpose).

In general this looks good. Please do specify that President/Prime Minister ALSO is the Secretary of Treasury, so people know where responsibilities belong.

Question, maybe the DP should be the VP, possibly VP should be Prime Minister?

 

[Provolution]

Mobilization was already added to Domestic as part of the change currently being polled. Drafting (and pop rushing) has always been a touchy subject, and is normally left to the governors. FYI in the demogames I've been a part of we never reached the point where either one was actually used.

I think you left out mobilization, but only included War Economy.

The language not being in full sentences is due mostly to lack of time, which is also what got us here to begin with. I'm still working some overtime and now we're packing to move to our new house first weekend in May.

That is not a good excuse, in particular all the vast amounts of energy put into shenanigans conducted by the Lord of the Flies (William Golding's novel) Teen Squad, which cared more for personal persecution than to improve the wording. Destructive over constructive from that side. Harsh, but true.

Moderator Action: Warned for flaming/trolling. Don't start this again please. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Not changing the names at this point is a strategy to not confuse the voters who have to ratify this. We can do that (the name change, not the confusion ) at a stroke of the pen, even after nominations start as long as we provide a cheat sheet for the elections office.

Not a good reason, we could have much much more intuitive and informative titles, we all agreed on that in the discussion thread, and you should respect that, not defend "Consul" to the bitter end.

"Alternative" had two meanings from the very beginning. One, I wanted something other than the 6 F-keys in the game, two I wanted more long term planning. The strategic / tactical divide doesn't really achieve the long term planning because we can't force the strategic side to stay long term. Having everything up for interpretation doesn't help. We need one person == one job, but still keep the essence of long term.

This I agree on, making the President also the secretary of Treasury handles that brilliantly. End of story, there we get the long term planning by scaling up strategy to President and tactical to strategy. I am happy to empower or abolish culture, and part finance away from domestic for now.
Finance separate from Domestic is a major difference from Traditional.

 

[DaveShack]

I think you left out mobilization, but only included War Economy.

The game has just one concept, mobilization, and the pending amendment (which will have passed once the poll closes) includes it in Domestic. "War Economy" is not an in-game term and we don't need it defined in the constitution.

Not a good reason, we could have much much more intuitive and informative titles, we all agreed on that in the discussion thread, and you should respect that, not defend "Consul" to the bitter end.

Plain and simple, I want the poll to go up asap, not spend time fixing the language. The names of the offices could even be changed in the middle of a term without a problem -- but the duties need to be fixed before elections so that people know what office they are running for.

 

[Octavian X]

When I look at that posposal, I noticed that the tactical layer of government has been whittled down to a grand total of two positions, while the Strategic layers of government have simply been handed over greater powers once handled by the tactical layer.

I'll second Provolution. Let's just save ourselves the trouble and simply move the Interior Director and the Commander of the Armed Forces to Consular label and delete the tactical layer of government altogether. Given the sentiment behind DaveShack's lastest proposed amendment, I'm inclined to declare the strategic/tactical layers experiment, for the most part, a failure.

 

[Black_Hole]

The reason it failed was because of consuls thinking everything was long term, giving directors nothing to do... a clear defining of long term & short term would fix this

 

[Provolution]

The reason it failed was because of consuls thinking everything was long term, giving directors nothing to do... a clear defining of long term & short term would fix this

Too late, I and some others called for clear definitions, but we were swamped down by so-called "gurus" calling for ambiguity, I can even provide links and citations there.
I think Alternate is overdue, so is the mediocre Traditional as well, now time to try a slimmed down moderate, specified and functional set-up.

 

[Provolution]

DS

Did you read Post 87 at all ?

 

[DaveShack]

DS

Did you read Post 87 at all ?

Yes I read it, and plan to consider those additional changes on a future amendment.

 

[Black_Hole]

Too late, I and some others called for clear definitions, but we were swamped down by so-called "gurus" calling for ambiguity, I can even provide links and citations there.
I think Alternate is overdue, so is the mediocre Traditional as well, now time to try a slimmed down moderate, specified and functional set-up.

ummmm, okay?
i need to get a dictionary

 

[DaveShack]

Unfinished business:

• Make the names more English sounding
• Discussion on whether the Director of Infrastructure provides sufficient value or if that function should go back to the DP
• Find a way to put teeth into the "suggestions" given to the Governors without stripping too much of their power
• General cleanup

We have a good, successful methodology for making changes. While I plan to continue to be active in this area, since I seem to be winning the CJ election ethics would suggest I should not spearhead amendments, to avoid the conflict of interest in having to rule on their merit. I would welcome another citizen carrying on in the general direction I've been trying to lead this, and would not mind someone putting their mark on that continuation.