Convert or Die?

[mdwh]

There are no passages in the Bible that endorses violence to convert.

The are plenty of passages in the Bible that endorse violence to those who do not conform to Christianity, eg:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
"He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."
"Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

What are the passages from the Koran, out of interest?

 

[Elrohir]

Koran 5:51
O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Koran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Koran 9:73
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.

Koran 5:57
Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime...

Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'

Koran 47:4
When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.

Koran 5:33-34
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

 

[Katheryn]

The are plenty of passages in the Bible that endorse violence to those who do not conform to Christianity, eg:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
"He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."
"Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

What are the passages from the Koran, out of interest?

These are JEWISH rules, not Christian.

Christianity is an extension of Judiasm but the work of Jesus Christ made these laws inapplicable to Christians.

Christianity has nothing to do with these rules, at all. You do not understand Christianity if you think so.

 

[Perfection]

These are JEWISH rules, not Christian.

Christianity is an extension of Judiasm but the work of Jesus Christ made these laws inapplicable to Christians.

Christianity has nothing to do with these rules, at all. You do not understand Christianity if you think so.

Tell that to the Westboro baptist church!
http://www.godhatesfags.com/bible/fags.html

 

[skadistic]

Tell that to the Westboro baptist church!
http://www.godhatesfags.com/bible/fags.html

Thoes aren't people much less christains.

 

[Katheryn]

Perhaps so, but not the ones that you use!

It does? Where? And why can't sunday be the 7th day?

Only according to certain Christian doctrine

Well, the Catholic Church called him a heretic. He was percieved as a heretic by many during his time. So, I think by your definition we should not consider him a Christian.

What makes them any more of a cult then the RCC?

Then Martin Luther must've been a heretic too!

And it's for you to judge?


Actually your test, that Nicene or whatever test is outside the bible.

YOu know, it is nearly impossible to debate Christian doctrine with someone who doesn't know it.

If someone knew the Bible, were at all comfortable with the tenets of this religion, you wouldn't make these claims. The Bible judges, as does the Christian community, again as I said earlier.

The 'tests' of what makes a Christians is written in the Bible. They are then organized into a concise format in the Nicene Creed. Martin Luther did not disagree with these truths. He disagreed with other things, like celibacy, indulgences, infallibility of the Pope, allowing the common people to read the Bible. These things are now common for the Church, and opposition to them do not constitute heresy. He was excommunicated for opposing the Church's dogma (beliefs added that are not in the Bible)


If you want to know what does, you can go here:

http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

and educate yourself.

Regardless of how much you want to argue, this is the basic test.

Sunday can't be the 7th day because it IS NOT. The early church chose to meet on Sunday to disassociate themselves with those who went to the synagogue. Also, Jesus rose from the dead on a day that was NOT the Sabbath. It was the next day.

And again, if you knew the Bible, you would know that (I already listed this) a believer could not even drive his car to go to church if he was faithfully following the Sabbath law.

 

[Elrohir]

Tell that to the Westboro baptist church!
http://www.godhatesfags.com/bible/fags.html

Please don't bring up those people. I'm a very conservative Evangelical Christian - and even I think they're nuts. I've never met, or even heard of Christians outside their group that agreed with much of what they say.

Honestly, those people sicken me.

 

[Katheryn]

Tell that to the Westboro baptist church!
http://www.godhatesfags.com/bible/fags.html

They have been 'told' many times. They have been repudiated many times.

 

[Perfection]

Thoes aren't people much less christains.

Why not?

YOu know, it is nearly impossible to debate Christian doctrine with someone who doesn't know it.

I don't see it as an issue of doctrine. I see it as an issue of classification. In my view Christians often take a narrower definition then they should.

The 'tests' of what makes a Christians is written in the Bible.

But some people who believe in the factual accuracy of the bible and the divinity of Christ disagree. I would not classify them as not Christian because of it.

They are then organized into a concise format in the Nicene Creed. Martin Luther did not disagree with these truths. He disagreed with other things, like celibacy, indulgences, infallibility of the Pope, allowing the common people to read the Bible. These things are now common for the Church, and opposition to them do not constitute heresy.

But they did! That's the point!

Sunday can't be the 7th day because it IS NOT. The early church chose to meet on Sunday to disassociate themselves with those who went to the synagogue. Also, Jesus rose from the dead on a day that was NOT the Sabbath. It was the next day.

Well in my experience people call Sunday the Sabbath all the time and view the 10 commandments as very important. I think maybe even the Catholics do.

And again, if you knew the Bible, you would know that (I already listed this) a believer could not even drive his car to go to church if he was faithfully following the Sabbath law.

Where's the no car passage?

Please don't bring up those people. I'm a very conservative Evangelical Christian - and even I think they're nuts. I've never met, or even heard of Christians outside their group that agreed with much of what they say.

Honestly, those people sicken me.

That's all fine, Elrohir, but I can't see why that doesn't make them not Christians.

They have been 'told' many times. They have been repudiated many times.

So? Just because people don't like them doesn't make them not Christians.

And what about other Christians who take the old testament very seriously like members of the Worldwide Church of God?

 

[Katheryn]

Yes, it does make them 'not Christians'.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Here is an article where the Southern Baptist Convention has denounced them and confirmed that they have no ties with Westboro:

http://ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=6234

You might think that the Christian Church is very disorganized and loose, but you are wrong about there being no standards, no requirements. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Perfection]

Yes, it does make them 'not Christians'.

No it doesn't. Heck I bet they even believe in the Nicene Creed!

You don't know what you are talking about.

Well then I guess I'm hopeless!

Here is an article where the Southern Baptist Convention has denounced them and confirmed that they have no ties with Westboro:

http://ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=6234

So? Christians don't agree with other Christians, happens all the time! Whole protestant reformation involved a lot of that stuff.

You might think that the Christian Church is very disorganized and loose, but you are wrong about there being no standards, no requirements. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

There is no "the Christian Church" there are many Christian Churches.

 

[Katheryn]

But some people who believe in the factual accuracy of the bible and the divinity of Christ disagree. I would not classify them as not Christian because of it.

===============

All right, here is an example.

This is what the Bible says about it:

We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

=======================

Those words are from the Apostle John. These words are not one of the sections of the Bible that are disputed (ie Genesis, or gospels) They are simple instructions to the church that he gave when they asked for advice.

Anyone who denies the deity of Jesus Christ is an "antichrist". That means that person is absolutely NOT a Christian.

 

[Katheryn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katheryn
You might think that the Christian Church is very disorganized and loose, but you are wrong about there being no standards, no requirements. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

There is no "the Christian Church" there are many Christian Churches.
__________________


Well, I can see that you did not read the Nicene Creed that I posted.

It is very short, but one proclamation is the fact that there is only ONE church.

 

[Elrohir]

That's all fine, Elrohir, but I can't see why that doesn't make them not Christians.

I never said it did, or didn't. I'm inclined to say that they are not true Christians, simply out of the sheer hatred they show, but being a Christian doesn't preclude sin, even such disgusting and hateful sin. I can't say that I know that they aren't.

But suffice to say that 99.999% of Christians in the world are disgusted by those people. Again, that doesn't make them non-Christians necessarily, but I would certainly make the case that they are not showing the love of Christ.

 

[Perfection]

I never said it did, or didn't. I'm inclined to say that they are not true Christians, simply out of the sheer hatred they show, but being a Christian doesn't preclude sin, even such disgusting and hateful sin. I can't say that I know that they aren't.

But suffice to say that 99.999% of Christians in the world are disgusted by those people.

See that's the point I'm getting at, Christianity is a slippery definition and it's best to take a lumping vs splitting viewpoint.

It is very short, but one proclamation is the fact that there is only ONE church.

So the RCC and the Lutheran Church are one church?

 

[Katheryn]

The Bible also says this:

5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,
and for victory many advisers.

7 Wisdom is too high for a fool;
in the assembly at the gate he has nothing to say.

8 He who plots evil
will be known as a schemer.

9 The schemes of folly are sin,
and men detest a mocker.

10 If you falter in times of trouble,
how small is your strength!

===================

I am beginning to realize that the only thing you want to do is not discuss anything, but just mock.

 

[Elrohir]

See that's the point I'm getting at, Christianity is a slippery definition and it's best to take a lumping vs splitting viewpoint.

As far as I can tell, they are a Hyper-Calvinistic bunch, but they still believe in the Diety and Salvation of Christ, whom they say they have personally accepted as their Savior. If that's true, then they technically are Christians, if a very hateful bunch who disgraces the rest. But again, no one but God knows the heart, so I can't say for sure about them.

Let's put it this way: I would never go to their church.

 

[Katheryn]

I never said it did, or didn't. I'm inclined to say that they are not true Christians, simply out of the sheer hatred they show, but being a Christian doesn't preclude sin, even such disgusting and hateful sin. I can't say that I know that they aren't.

But suffice to say that 99.999% of Christians in the world are disgusted by those people. Again, that doesn't make them non-Christians necessarily, but I would certainly make the case that they are not showing the love of Christ.

There is a test for this too:


Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him....

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

-------------

Again, from 1 John.

 

[skadistic]

It takes more then saying you accept Jesus as your savour to make you a christian. You must also walk in his path so to speak. They (the whakos) walk in a path that is against what the crist child advocated.

 

[Perfection]

The Bible also says this:

5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,
and for victory many advisers.

7 Wisdom is too high for a fool;
in the assembly at the gate he has nothing to say.

8 He who plots evil
will be known as a schemer.

9 The schemes of folly are sin,
and men detest a mocker.

10 If you falter in times of trouble,
how small is your strength!

I'm not seeing the relevance.

I am beginning to realize that the only thing you want to do is not discuss anything, but just mock.

No, I'm trying to demonstrate the folly of your methodology of determining who Christians are in order to distance yourself from Christians who engage in henious acts.

As far as I can tell, they are a Hyper-Calvinistic bunch, but they still believe in the Diety and Salvation of Christ, whom they say they have personally accepted as their Savior. If that's true, then they technically are Christians, if a very hateful bunch who disgraces the rest. But again, no one but God knows the heart, so I can't say for sure about them.

Let's put it this way: I would never go to their church.

Well, I make no claims that they are any way represenate of Christians in general. All I am saying is they are indeed Christians.