Convert or Die?

[Perfection]

It takes more then saying you accept Jesus as your savour to make you a christian. You must also walk in his path so to speak. They (the whakos) walk in a path that is against what the crist child advocated.

How do you evaluate whether someone is warlking in the path of the Christ child or not?

 

[Elrohir]

Well, I make no claims that they are any way represenate of Christians in general. All I am saying is they are indeed Christians.

You can no more know that they are than I can that they are not. Only God truly knows that; we can only suspect.

 

[Katheryn]

As far as I can tell, they are a Hyper-Calvinistic bunch, but they still believe in the Diety and Salvation of Christ, whom they say they have personally accepted as their Savior. If that's true, then they technically are Christians, if a very hateful bunch who disgraces the rest. But again, no one but God knows the heart, so I can't say for sure about them.

Let's put it this way: I would never go to their church.

Still there are times when 'the church' is to go to an erring brother and warn him, and if he refuses...

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

=========

This is talking about sexual immorality, but the idea is the same.

The Baptist Convention who is the umbrella, goes to the church and says, 'stop' and if they don't they get tossed out.

This is precisely what happens in these situations.

 

[Perfection]

You can no more know that they are than I can that they are not.

Generally self-professed Christian identity is enough in my book.

Only God truly knows that; we can only suspect.

I wouldn't think that God cares about human definitions.

 

[Katheryn]

You can no more know that they are than I can that they are not. Only God truly knows that; we can only suspect.

I think someone is confusing INDIVIDUALS with a CHURCH.

You may not know whether or not someone is 'Chrisitan' but you can surely denounce a church for being in error. A church can certainly be disbanned, or expelled from a denomination for refusing to submit to Biblical guidelines.

 

[Perfection]

Still there are times when 'the church' is to go to an erring brother and warn him, and if he refuses...

The Church is infalliable?

The Baptist Convention who is the umbrella, goes to the church and says, 'stop' and if they don't they get tossed out.

I don't recognize the Baptist Convention to decide who is or who is not Christian.

Interestingly the Baptist convention doesn't say the WBC aren't Christians.

 

[Perfection]

You may not know whether or not someone is 'Chrisitan' but you can surely denounce a church for being in error. A church can certainly be disbanned, or expelled from a denomination for refusing to submit to Biblical guidelines.

An error makes a church unchristian?!

 

[Katheryn]

Generally self-professed Christian identity is enough in my book.

I wouldn't think that God cares about human definitions.

Well, it is obvious that you prefer your definition to either Christians or the Bible. Evidently, you would rather condemn Christians on petty reasons even though they are trying to explain their religion to you. You are obviously anti-religion and this fuels your obstinancy.

And God is the one who wrote these standards, so they are good enough for Him, then aren't they.

 

[Katheryn]

An error makes a church unchristian?!

If the error is such an error that the magnitude of it causes digrace upon the rest of the Body, or causes such acute suffering by the families at the soldiers' funerals, then yes, a church would be warned, and then expelled from the community of believers - by the community of believers.

Jesus told his followers, 'whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.' They have a great deal of authority.

 

[Masquerouge]

I think someone is confusing INDIVIDUALS with a CHURCH.

You may not know whether or not someone is 'Chrisitan' but you can surely denounce a church for being in error. A church can certainly be disbanned, or expelled from a denomination for refusing to submit to Biblical guidelines.

Luther was excommunicated. Does that mean he's not a Christian?

The point I'm getting at is that your attitude towards cults not being Christian is the exact same than the RCC had early on towards Protestants. What makes you right, and the RCC wrong?

 

[skadistic]

How do you evaluate whether someone is warlking in the path of the Christ child or not?

They follow his example laid out in the bible. His was a path of love and tolerance and other generaly good things. What these people (raving lunatics) do is not love, kindness, caring, tolerant or anyrhing of the sort.

 

[Perfection]

Well, it is obvious that you prefer your definition to either Christians or the Bible.

Of course I prefer my definition. What I don't see is how the Bible dictates a specefic definition or how your proposed definitions agree with common usage.

Evidently, you would rather condemn Christians on petty reasons even though they are trying to explain their religion to you.

How am I condemning Christians? I'm just quibbling over a definition.

You are obviously anti-religion and this fuels your obstinancy.

While I will admit a mild distate for religion I would deny your claim. It is not with malice that I don't believe your definition is valid. Rather, I find it against common usage to not call someone who believes in the divinity of Christ Christian. You give special criteria like the nicene creed or acceptance by other churches as definitions but I see historical and contemporary examples that seem to be Christian and calling them not Christian would be poor usage in my mind.

And God is the one who wrote these standards, so they are good enough for Him, then aren't they.

Do you have evidence that God wrote these standards?

 

[Perfection]

If the error is such an error that the magnitude of it causes digrace upon the rest of the Body, or causes such acute suffering by the families at the soldiers' funerals, then yes, a church would be warned, and then expelled from the community of believers - by the community of believers.

Being expelled doesn't mean that they aren't Christians anymore or else Mennonites who were expelled becasue of thier belief that homosexuals should be allowed in the congregation would no longer be considered Christians.

They follow his example laid out in the bible. His was a path of love and tolerance and other generaly good things. What these people (raving lunatics) do is not love, kindness, caring, tolerant or anyrhing of the sort.

So were medieval popes who advocated the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition not Christians?

I wouldn't say so.

 

[El_Machinae]

I waffle in my definition. Sometimes I consider people to be Christian if they say they are. Other times I only call them Christian if they follow the teachings of Christ. Of course, given that usage, I'm heavily Christian then.

 

[skadistic]

So were medieval popes who advocated the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition not Christians?

I wouldn't say so.

Damn you Perfection and your logic!!

Being an athiest its nigh on imposible for me to continue trying to argue a side I detest.

 

[Katheryn]

I waffle in my definition. Sometimes I consider people to be Christian if they say they are. Other times I only call them Christian if they follow the teachings of Christ. Of course, given that usage, I'm heavily Christian then.

As I said earlier, it is not the definition of an INDIVIDUAL believer we are discussing. You would probably take anyone's word for it if they say they are a Christian... we have valleys and mountains in our walk and are sometimes not as devoted as we should be to Christ's teachings. Still, if an individual in error, we have an established way of dealing with it.

However, we are discussing whether or not a GROUP is Christian, ie the Ugandan Army group or the Westboro Church.

These are accused of being Christian groups that advocate violence.

And they have both been repudiated by their communities as not being Christian, in the same established way of dealing with it.

I have already posted the proper way to do so, it is 1 Corinthians 5.

 

[Perfection]

Do you say that the Catholic church used to not be Christian?

 

[Katheryn]

Crusades:


They were a response to over 400 years of brutality and forced conversions. The Muslim horde destroyed nearly every church in Byzantine, what we call Turkey today. Any church that was not destroy was too beautiful to destroy, so they were changed into mosques.

Also the Muslims had sacked St. Peter's (where the Pope resided) and they were forced to flee to another location. Many of the Greek texts were in jeopardy, like Plato, Socrates and these were later taken back from the Muslims - many like the library at Alexandria, Egypt were destroyed. Also sacked was the Christian holy city of Jerusalem, pillaged and destroyed by Muslims.

The Pope finally asked France, England and Italy to help stop the situation. But here is a partial list of the aggression against the Christians:

1. 613 Persians capture Damascus and Antioch

2. 614 Persians sack Jerusalem

3. 633 Muslims conquer Syria and Iraq

4. 635 Muslims begin the conquest of Persia and Syria

5. 635 Arab Muslims capture the city of Damascus

6. 636-637 Arab domination of Syria

7. 637 Arabs occupy Ctesiphon

8. 637 Jerusalem falls to Muslim forces

9. 638 Caliph Umar I enters Jerusalem

10. 639 Muslims conquer Egypt and Persia

11. 641 Islam spreads into Egypt

12. 641 Muslims conquer Alexandria

13. 649 Muawiya I leads raid against Cyprus sacking the capital Salamis-Constantia

14. 652 Sicily is attacked by Muslims

15. 653 Muawiya I leads raid against Rhodes

16. 654 Muawiya I conquers Cyprus

17. 655 Battle of the Masts

18. 661-680 Mu’awiya moves capital from Mecca to Damascus

19. 662 Egypt falls to the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates

20. 667 Sicily is attacked by Muslims

21. 668 First siege of Constantinople

22. 669 Muslim conquest reaches Morocco

23. 672 Muslims capture the island of Rhodes

24. 674 Arab conquest reaches Indus River

25. 698 Muslims capture Carthage

26. 700 Muslims raid Island of Sicily

27. 711 Muslims conquest of Sindh in Afghanistan

28. 711 Battle of Guadalate

29. 712 Conquest of Andulusia

30. 715 Muslim conquest of Spain

31. 716 Muslims captured Lisbon

32. 717 Cordova becomes capital of Andalusia (Spain)

33. 719 Muslims attack Septimania in Southern France

34. 721 Muslims cross the Pyrenees

35. 722 Battle of Covadonga First defeat of Muslims by Christians

36. 724 Muslims raid southern France and capture Carcassone and Nimes

37. 725 Muslim forces occupy Nimes, France

38. 730 Muslim forces occupy Narbonne and Avignon

39. 732 Battle of Tours (Christian Victory)

40. 735 Muslim invaders capture Arles

41. 750 Abbasids move capital to Baghdad

42. 756 The Emirate of Cordova is established

43. 759 Pippin III ends Muslim incursions in France

44. 792 Hisham I calls for a Jihad Thousands heed his call to cross the Pyrenees to subjugate France. Many cities are destroyed

45. 813 Muslims attack the Civi Vecchia near Rome

46. 816 The Moors support the Basques against the Franks

47. 827 Sicily is invaded by Muslims

48. 831 Muslims capture Palermo and make it their capital

49. 838 Muslim raiders sack Marseille

50. 841 Muslim forces capture Bari (in Italy)

51. 846 Muslim raiders attack areas near Ostia and Rome. Some enter Rome and damage the Churches of St. Peter and St. Paul. The Leonine Wall is built to discourage further Attacks.

52. 849 Battle of Ostia (Christian Victory)

53. 850 Perfectus, a Christian priest in Muslim Cordova is executed – one of the first of Many

54. 85111 young Christians are executed for insulting the Prophet Muhammed

55. 858 Muslim raiders attack Constantinople

56. 859 Muslim invaders capture Castrogiovanni slaughtering several thousand

57. 869 Arabs capture the island of Malta

58. 870 Muslim invaders capture Syracuse

59. 876 Muslims pillage Campagna in Italy

60. 879 The Seljuk Empire unites Mesapotamia and a large portion of Persia

61. 884 Muslims invading Italy burn the monastery of Monte Cassino to the ground

62. 900 The Fatimid Dynasty assumes control of Egypt

63. 902 The Muslim conquest of Sicily is completed when the Christian city of Toorminia is captured

64. 909 Sicily comes under control of the Fatimids

65. 909 The fatimid Dynasty assumes control of Egypt

66. 909 Muslims control all the passes in the Alps between France and Italy – cutting off passage between the two countries

67. 920 Muslim forces cross the Pyrenees, enter Gascony and reach as far as the gates of Toulouse

68. 972 The Fatimids of Egypt conquer North Africa

69. 981 Ramiro III, king of Leon, is defeated at Rueda

70. 985 Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir sacks Barcelona

71. 994 The monastery of Monte Cassino is destrpyed a second time by Arabs

72. 997 Under the leadership of Almanzar, Muslim forces march out of the city of Cordova and head north to capture Christian lands.

73. 997 Muslim forces burn Compostela to the ground

74. 1004 Arab raiders sack the Italian city of Pisa

75. 1009 The Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is destroyed by Muslim armies

76. 1009 Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah orders the the Holy Sepulcher and all Christian buildings in Jerusalem be destroyed

77. 1012 Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah orders the destruction of all Christian and Jewish houses of worship in his lands

78. 1012 Berber forces capture Cordova and order that half the population be executed

79. 1015 Arab Muslim forces conquer Sardinia

80. 1064 The Seljuk Turks conquer Christian Armenia

81. 1070 Seljuk Turks capture Jerusalem and begin persecuting Christian Pilgrims

82. 1071-1085 Seljuk Turks conquer most of Syria and Palestine

83. 1071 Battle of Manzikert

84. 1073 Seljuk Turks conquer Ankara

85. 1078 Seljuk Turks capture Nicaea

86. 1084 Seljuk Turks conquer Antioch

67. 1086 Battle of Zallaca

68. 1088 Patzinak Turks begin forming settlements between the Danube and the Balkans

69. 1090 Granada captured by Yusuf Ibn Tashfin

70. 1091 Cordova is captured by the Almoravids

==============================================

 

[El_Machinae]

edit: this (now useless) x-post brought to you by the letter "y"

 

[Perfection]

Crusades:

Now do the Spanish Inquisition!