Convert or Die?

[Katheryn]

]No, that was the only time that someone was killed in a bombing. There have been numerous cases of bombing and arson
http://www.prochoice.org/pubs_research/publications/downloads/about_abortion/violence_statistics.pdf


Well, first of all those statistics just show how very LITTLE incidents there are. Almost nothing in ten years. And who says that the violence was done by Christians? Not the link. There are many against abortion, not just Christians! Most of the problem was done in the mid 1990s. All there is since is 'vandalism' and what is that - spray paint?


Well, that's debateable,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1196-2003Jun1?language=printer
but Eric Rudolph is not the only bomber so it really doesn't matter

No, I say so because Christians do bomb abortion clinics.

Hogwash.

Eric Rudoph was in the 'Christian Identity' which is just a white power neonazi organization. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.

Here is his 'motives':
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/13/eric.rudolph/index.html

he says nothing about God. He is a gay basher.

This movement is anti-government, anarchist group.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/18/rudolph.sentencing/

It is a heretical group that does NOT accept traditional Christianity:

Christian Identity believers reject the beliefs of most modern orthodox Christian denominations, and claim that modern Christian Churches are teaching a heresy: the belief that God's promises to Israel (through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) have been expanded to create a spiritual people of "Israel," which constitutes the Christian "Church". In turn, most modern Christian denominations and organizations denounce Christian Identity theology as a heresy, and condemn the use of the Christian Bible as a basis for promoting anti-Semitism.

from wikipedia.com

=============

OK? Neo-Nazis are absolutely not Christians.

 

[Perfection]

And so we are supposed to believe that a vicious rebel group who sexually assaults children, forces them into the army, who attacks Catholic missionaries, that they are Christians? Just because they stick the name "Lord" in front of their name? "Lord" can mean alot of different things. If you go to a country with an aristocracy, you can call them "Lord" too.

They talk about starting a theocracy based on the 10 commanments. They most certainly are Chrsistians.

I'm sorry, but if it is not affiliated with a church that is a bona fide Christian church,

So? Are non-denominational Christians not Christians?

I don't see how it could call itself 'Christian' especially when they do heinous acts like this. Are there any Christian churches affiliated with this group? Anyone to give them a recommendation? An endorsement?

Lack of recognition from centralized Christians sources does not make one not a Christian. Christians, like groups of all religion/lack of religion have people who do horrible things. It's an ugly distubing fact but a fact nonetheless.

And no. You don't need to be buried facing Jerusalem, to be resurrected, if that is what you are getting at. That is silly.

Nope, it's to see Christ at the second coming.

 

[Perfection]

Eric Rudoph was in the 'Christian Identity' which is just a white power neonazi organization. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.

Here is his 'motives':
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/13/eric.rudolph/index.html

he says nothing about God. He is a gay basher.

It doesn't mean he does get his morals from god.

This movement is anti-government, anarchist group.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/18/rudolph.sentencing/

It is a heretical group that does NOT accept traditional Christianity:

Christian Identity believers reject the beliefs of most modern orthodox Christian denominations, and claim that modern Christian Churches are teaching a heresy: the belief that God's promises to Israel (through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) have been expanded to create a spiritual people of "Israel," which constitutes the Christian "Church". In turn, most modern Christian denominations and organizations denounce Christian Identity theology as a heresy, and condemn the use of the Christian Bible as a basis for promoting anti-Semitism.

from wikipedia.com

=============

OK? Neo-Nazis are absolutely not Christians.

Neo-Nazis certainly can be Christians, just because normal Christians want to distance themselves from them doesn't mean they're not Christians.

 

[Spartan117]

Well then, why did you say that you'll see Jesus if you are buried southeast?

-------------------

I think it's a made-up PC thing, then. So that Muslims don't look stupid wanting to be buried in a particular direction. They always throw Christians under the bus on these things, as though Christians care about such a dopey thing. Muslims are even told which direction to face when they take a piss.
Next they'll be saying that Christians have a rule about that too!

So it is "stupid" to be buried in a particular direction. In that case everyone can percieve any traditions and beliefs as being merely "stupid".

I find many things that I consider "stupid" in christianity and all religions as well. I wonder why they care about such a dopey thing as going to church or saying their little Hail Marys. What does that really do but waste time?

However if a person wants to buried a certain way or buried at all thats their perogative. I dont really care. Why should I care?

You know what I think burials is a dopey thing too. The "right" way to go is buring bodies. Or why do people care about a dopey ritualized burial at all? Where do we draw the universal line at what is dopey and what isnt?

 

[Katheryn]

They talk about starting a theocracy based on the 10 commanments. They most certainly are Chrsistians.

So? Are non-denominational Christians not Christians?


===========

If a group is based upon the Ten Commandments that would make them JEWISH. This group claims to be original JEWS/ISRAELITES.

Christians do NOT base their religion on the Ten Commandments. When was the last time you saw a Christian refusing to drive on Saturday, or to work on Saturday, or to mow their lawn on a Saturday. One of the Ten Commandments is to Keep the Sabbath. We don't do that.

===========

Lack of recognition from centralized Christians sources does not make one not a Christian. Christians, like groups of all religion/lack of religion have people who do horrible things. It's an ugly distubing fact but a fact nonetheless.

===========

You are full of baloney. A group can't just say, 'Hey, we're Christian' and then kill people, that would make Jim Jones, a cultist, a Christian. He wasn't. Christians are bound together by their faith. By what they believe. If a group is heretical, they are NOT Christian. Someone may be nondenominational, but they will still be recognized in the community as a sect. Or the Christian parachurch organizations will recognize them as Chrisitans. This is not the case with the ragtag rebel army in Sudan. The Christian nonchurch groups do not recognize them and say they are not of the Christian religion. It said that in the article that you linked.

There are things that bind the Christian sects to one another, the denominatons to one another. You don't see that because you are not involved in it. But they DO communicate and they DO affirm one another or call them heretics if they are so and warn people off.

People are free to believe what they want! If they want to believe the Christian religion FINE! But they must affirm the Nicene Creed for one. And if they do not, if they choose to be HERETICS, then that is their choice. That group will be spurned by the Christian community and it is wrong to you or anyone else to claim they are Christian. They are NOT. They are heretics! What are we supposed to do, kill heretics? That is what they did in the Inquisition. They forced Gnostics (Heretics of the day) to recant. Of course not. All we can do is denounce them, which the church did loud and clear.

Nope, it's to see Christ at the second coming.

Well, that is silly. We will know because we will HEAR the last trump.

 

[Katheryn]

So it is "stupid" to be buried in a particular direction. In that case everyone can percieve any traditions and beliefs as being merely "stupid".

I find many things that I consider "stupid" in christianity and all religions as well. I wonder why they care about such a dopey thing as going to church or saying their little Hail Marys. What does that really do but waste time?

However if a person wants to buried a certain way or buried at all thats their perogative. I dont really care. Why should I care?

You know what I think burials is a dopey thing too. The "right" way to go is buring bodies. Or why do people care about a dopey ritualized burial at all? Where do we draw the universal line at what is dopey and what isnt?

How about this, we'll make an agreement.

If you want to do something 'stupid' then don't lie and say that I do it too. Because I don't. I think it's stupid. And I don't want everyone else to think I'm stupid because you are embarrassed to admit that you are the only one who wants to do this stupid thing.

We'll make it go both ways. So, if I want to go to church and waste time, then I won't make up a story and tell everyone that you go to church too, just so I don't look I'm the only person stupid enough to waste time.

We won't make up stories about one another.

Here's another example:

Just because your religion is stupid enough to do violence (terror attacks) then don't lie and say that my religion does it too, just so you don't look stupid all by yourself. That is lying.

 

[Perfection]

If a group is based upon the Ten Commandments that would make them JEWISH. This group claims to be original JEWS/ISRAELITES.

They say they're Christian

Christians do NOT base their religion on the Ten Commandments. When was the last time you saw a Christian refusing to drive on Saturday, or to work on Saturday, or to mow their lawn on a Saturday. One of the Ten Commandments is to Keep the Sabbath. We don't do that.

I know plenty of Christians who try to make sure they don't work on sunday, which they believe is the Sabbath.

You are full of baloney. A group can't just say, 'Hey, we're Christian' and then kill people,

They can and they do.

that would make Jim Jones, a cultist, a Christian. He wasn't.

He was or atleast his followers were

Christians are bound together by their faith. By what they believe. If a group is heretical, they are NOT Christian. Someone may be nondenominational, but they will still be recognized in the community as a sect. Or the Christian parachurch organizations will recognize them as Chrisitans. This is not the case with the ragtag rebel army in Sudan. The Christian nonchurch groups do not recognize them and say they are not of the Christian religion. It said that in the article that you linked.

So then Martin Luther was not a Christian when most Christians viewed him as heretical?

There are things that bind the Christian sects to one another, the denominatons to one another. You don't see that because you are not involved in it. But they DO communicate and they DO affirm one another or call them heretics if they are so and warn people off.

So then Martin Luther was a heretic?

People are free to believe what they want! If they want to believe the Christian religion FINE! But they must affirm the Nicene Creed for one.

I'm sure the Mormans would have a few things to say about that...

And how do you know the LRA doesn't accet the creed?

And if they do not, if they choose to be HERETICS, then that is their choice. That group will be spurned by the Christian community and it is wrong to you or anyone else to claim they are Christian. They are NOT. They are heretics! What are we supposed to do, kill heretics? That is what they did in the Inquisition. They forced Gnostics (Heretics of the day) to recant. Of course not. All we can do is denounce them, which the church did loud and clear.

Mormans seem pretty Christiany to me, yet you say they are heretics.

Well, that is silly. We will know because we will HEAR the last trump.

Well, I figure you'd want the full audio/visual experience.

 

[Perfection]

Just because your religion is stupid enough to do violence (terror attacks) then don't lie and say that my religion does it too, just so you don't look stupid all by yourself. That is lying.

No that is not lying. A lie is independant of motivation.

Just because you View Christianity as your religion doesn't mean you should view it through rose colored glasses. It has an ugly history and it has been the center of much violence.

 

[Shaihulud]

Well Christians do frequently clashes with Muslims in Indonesia: Christian Mobs Riot In Indonesia

Christian mobs torched cars, blockaded roads and looted Muslim-owned shops in violence touched off by Friday's executions of three Roman Catholics convicted of instigating attacks on Muslims.

Some 200 inmates escaped after mobs assaulted a jail in the town of Atambua, sending guards fleeing to the nearby jungle. By midday only 20 had been recaptured, deputy national police chief Lt. Gen. Adang Dorodjatun said, calling on the others to turn themselves in.

And on the island of Flores, the executed men's birthplace, machete-wielding mobs ran through the streets Friday, sending women and children running in panic, police and witnesses said.

Police and media reports said at least five people were hurt, including a prosecutor who was hospitalized with stab wounds.

Vice President Jusuf Kalla appealed for calm, saying the deaths of the three men had nothing to do with religion.

"It's a matter of law," he told reporters in the capital Jakarta. "If the people resent the law, we are doomed."

Fabianus Tibo, 60, Marinus Riwu, 48, and Dominggus da Silva, 42, were found guilty of leading a Christian militia that launched a series of attacks on Muslims in May 2000 that left at least 70 people dead.....

 

[mdwh]

And so we are supposed to believe that a vicious rebel group who sexually assaults children, forces them into the army, who attacks Catholic missionaries, that they are Christians? Just because they stick the name "Lord" in front of their name? "Lord" can mean alot of different things. If you go to a country with an aristocracy, you can call them "Lord" too.

I'm sorry, but if it is not affiliated with a church that is a bona fide Christian church, I don't see how it could call itself 'Christian' especially when they do heinous acts like this. Are there any Christian churches affiliated with this group? Anyone to give them a recommendation? An endorsement?

Well in that case, you could say the same of muslims - does Islam officially endorse the violent minority?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'm getting the impression people's knowledge of Christianity is inversely proportional to their devotion to it.

Meh. I should stop reading religion threads here while I still have a few shreds of faith in humanity left.

 

[Elrohir]

I'd like to have a rotating grave-spaceship with glass windows that continually rotates to have my face facing the sun. So I can work on my tan, of course.

All of that aside, I think this is ridiculous. The default angle of a grave should be the direction the majority want it to be; and I'm pretty sure Muslims aren't a majority in the UK, ergo they should be the ones to ask for special graves, not everyone else.

The whole thing is silly.

 

[Gladi]

I'd like to have a rotating grave-spaceship with glass windows that continually rotates to have my face facing the sun. So I can work on my tan, of course.

All of that aside, I think this is ridiculous. The default angle of a grave should be the direction the majority want it to be; and I'm pretty sure Muslims aren't a majority in the UK, ergo they should be the ones to ask for special graves, not everyone else.

The whole thing is silly.

What if the opinionated majority is muslim?

 

[Billy Rubin]

I don't care if the cemetary I'm buired in is aligned towards mekka - as long as I'm buried in a crouching position heading away from it.

 

[Katheryn]

They say they're Christian

So what! There are parameters that define what a Christian is.

--------

I know plenty of Christians who try to make sure they don't work on sunday, which they believe is the Sabbath.

The 10 commandments are clear that it is to be on the 7th Day. They are
not following it.

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They can and they do. He was or atleast his followers were

Oh hogwash. He said he WAS the Savior, not Jesus. That, by it's
claim makes one an 'antichrist'.

--------

So then Martin Luther was not a Christian when most Christians viewed him as heretical?

So then Martin Luther was a heretic?

He was a reformer of the church. Perhaps you should look up what a 'heretic' is. He was not one. He fought against corruption in the Catholic Church.

--------

I'm sure the Mormans would have a few things to say about that...

Mormons are a well known cult.

---------

And how do you know the LRA doesn't accet the creed?

Unlike you, I did research the organization. All the Christian ngos repudiate
the army, saying they are heretical. I accept that.

---------

Mormans seem pretty Christiany to me, yet you say they are heretics.

Well, it is not for you judge, now is it? Their Book of Mormon contradicts
many of the essential Christian tenets. Of course, they are free to
believe whatever they want, however, it is simply not Christian. There
are tests the the Bible that show how to distinguish a Christian from a
non-Christian. These are sufficient for the Church, and if a group does
not pass these tests, then they are not among the brethren of believers.
That may not agree with your ideas, but they have stood the test of time.

 

[Katheryn]

Well in that case, you could say the same of muslims - does Islam officially endorse the violent minority?

There are no Christian pastors who have endorsed violence to convert.
There are no passages in the Bible that endorses violence to convert.

There are many Muslim clerics that have issued fatwas that endorse violence.
There are many passages in the Koran that endorse violence to convert.

That is the different.

Yes, may officially endorse killing infidels. There has recently been a fatwa that gives Osama bin Laden permission to kill up to 10 million Americans.

Al Qaeda gets one of these fatwas from a high ranking Muslim cleric prior to any of the terrorist attacks they perform.

http://search.hp.netscape.com/hp/search?fromPage=HPSidebar&query=fatwa+cleric+terrorism&x=41&y=9

 

[Dionysius]

<purged.>

 

[Perfection]

So what! There are parameters that define what a Christian is.

Perhaps so, but not the ones that you use!

The 10 commandments are clear that it is to be on the 7th Day. They are
not following it.

It does? Where? And why can't sunday be the 7th day?

Oh hogwash. He said he WAS the Savior, not Jesus. That, by it's
claim makes one an 'antichrist'.

Only according to certain Christian doctrine

He was a reformer of the church. Perhaps you should look up what a 'heretic' is. He was not one. He fought against corruption in the Catholic Church.

Well, the Catholic Church called him a heretic. He was percieved as a heretic by many during his time. So, I think by your definition we should not consider him a Christian.

Mormons are a well known cult.

What makes them any more of a cult then the RCC?

Unlike you, I did research the organization. All the Christian ngos repudiate
the army, saying they are heretical. I accept that.

Then Martin Luther must've been a heretic too!

Well, it is not for you judge, now is it?

And it's for you to judge?

Their Book of Mormon contradicts many of the essential Christian tenets. Of course, they are free to believe whatever they want, however, it is simply not Christian. There are tests the the Bible that show how to distinguish a Christian from a non-Christian. These are sufficient for the Church, and if a group does not pass these tests, then they are not among the brethren of believers. That may not agree with your ideas, but they have stood the test of time.

Actually your test, that Nicene or whatever test is outside the bible.

 

[Perfection]

There are no Christian pastors who have endorsed violence to convert.

Pope Sixtus IV doesn't count?

 

[Masquerouge]

There are no Christian pastors who have endorsed violence to convert.

The Albigeois might have a few things to say about that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigeois
(I suggest the paragraph entitled "Suppression")
The Jews and Muslims in Spain might have a few things to say about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco
All of that with official Catholic authorization.

EDIT: how could I forgot that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_Massacre
"Pope Gregory XIII's reaction was jubilant: all the bells of Rome pealed for a public day of thanksgiving, the guns of the Castel Sant'Angelo sounded a joyous salute, a special commemorative medal was struck to honour the occasion, and Gregory commissioned Giorgio Vasari to paint a mural depicting the Massacre, which is in the Vatican."

There are no passages in the Bible that endorses violence to convert.

But there are quite a few passages in the Bible that endorses violence, rape and slavery against the "pagan".