Convert to Jesus or Die!

[nc-1701]

That is a theological difference. Christians do not see submission to God's will as the loss of liberty, because a) it is, it must be, voluntary, and b)because it is the path to real lasting happiness. I do what God wants me to do because He knows more than me; but if I were compelled to do so, or if I lost the ability to back away if I chose, then it would be meaningless. Liberty includes the liberty to obey.

Yes, but worshipping is something else. You can pledge allegiance or stand by someone you respect, but the instant they want you to start. Worshipping them you should lose all your respect for them.

 

[puglover]

Here is my other problem with christians they hand over there soul to another being, or so they belive, how can I respect someone who will sell away there existence in exchange for a reward? Whatever happend to "Give me liberty or give me death!"

I don't give my soul to God because I want to get a free ticket to Heaven. Christ gave his life for me, and that's why I serve him with the life I have.

The famous 1 John 4:19 is a great example of this message. "We love, because he first loved us." We aren't supposed to be kind to our neighbor and serve God just so we can get into Heaven first-class. It is because he gave us an example of how to love others, and I'm called to follow it.

Yes, but worshipping is something else. You can pledge allegiance or stand by someone you respect, but the instant they want you to start. Worshipping them you should lose all your respect for them.

God is not like a human friend or father, though. He is a God, and he deserves to be worshipped as such.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yes, but worshipping is something else. You can pledge allegiance or stand by someone you respect, but the instant they want you to start. Worshipping them you should lose all your respect for them.

Why should I do that? Again, as 'worship' is too vague a word, I am not sure how to respond. I am never quite sure what is meant by worship or why it is such an abhorrent concept. Merely pledging allegiance is not enough; I willingly surrender my will, because I know that in the end this is the best thing to do. But in practical terms, it doesn't turn me into a robot.

 

[Swedishguy]

Yeah, and? There are instances of people dropping religion and becoming atheists.

I've noticed that many people on this site does just that. Good.

 

[puglover]

Quick definitions (worship)

noun: the activity of worshipping
noun: a feeling of profound love and admiration
verb: attend religious services (Example: "They worship in the traditional manner")
verb: show devotion to (a deity) (Example: "Many Hindus worship Shiva")
verb: love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol

Number 5 would be an example of bad worship. The other four would certainly befit God, and are not abhorrent at all.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Okay, I feel profound love and admiration towards God, I attend religious services in His honor, and I show devotion to Him. And if God is really as I believe Him to be, than that is a good thing.

 

[Red Door]

I've noticed that many people on this site does just that. Good.

And you say Christians force people to convert.

 

[nc-1701]

I don't give my soul to God because I want to get a free ticket to Heaven. Christ gave his life for me, and that's why I serve him with the life I have.

The famous 1 John 4:19 is a great example of this message. "We love, because he first loved us." We aren't supposed to be kind to our neighbor and serve God just so we can get into Heaven first-class. It is because he gave us an example of how to love others, and I'm called to follow it.



God is not like a human friend or father, though. He is a God, and he deserves to be worshipped as such.

So you give you're life to repay the debt of your ancestors? No one deserves worship no, not even God. Worshiping someone indicates that you have accepted there innate superiority. Something I am unwilling to do.

You can love others without selling your soul and begging to get into heaven first-class. The fact you do not indicates this is far from your true goal. It may have been the goal of Jesus (The dude not God) , but it is certainly not the goal that modern christianity folows. I judge based upon what you do not what you say you should do.

 

[Swedishguy]

And you say Christians force people to convert.

Yes, baptisation and religious indoctrination is forcing people. Could you tell me how it isn't?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

So you give you're life to repay the debt of your ancestors? No one deserves worship no, not even God. Worshiping someone indicates that you have accepted there innate superiority. Something I am unwilling to do.

Why would you be unwilling to recognize the inherent superiority of a being that is inherently superior? Or do you really think that humans are as good as it gets?

You can love others without selling your soul and begging to get into heaven first-class. The fact you do not indicates this is far from your true goal. It may have been the goal of Jesus (The dude not God) , but it is certainly not the goal that modern christianity folows. I judge based upon what you do not what you say you should do.

No one is begging or selling their soul. Jesus himself believed that we should surrender to God, after all. We do it not for the reward but because it is what we should do.

 

[puglover]

So you give you're life to repay the debt of your ancestors? .

Who says I'm repaying the debt of an ancestor? Christ died for all of us, not just the first-century people. I'm not trying to "repay" anything either. I'm serving him, because he served me first.

No one deserves worship no, not even God. Worshiping someone indicates that you have accepted there innate superiority. Something I am unwilling to do

I express my devotion to the Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer of the human race. You say no one deserves it, but that's just because you're not seeing worship as how I described it. Our worship to God is deserved because of who he is and what he has done.

You can love others without selling your soul and begging to get into heaven first-class. The fact you do not indicates this is far from your true goal. It may have been the goal of Jesus (The dude not God) , but it is certainly not the goal that modern christianity folows. I judge based upon what you do not what you say you should do.

Did you not even read my post? I said I express my devotion (worship) God not because I want to get into heaven first-class, but because of what he has given humanity. You can't get past your own preconceptions and prejudices about worship and look at what it really is.

You say you can judge me based on what I do, but you don't know what I do. If I read this last part right, you just accused me of being a hypocrite. Why? You don't even know me. This is conclusive evidence that you're believing what you want to believe, and not what you learn.

 

[nc-1701]

Why would you be unwilling to recognize the inherent superiority of a being that is inherently superior? Or do you really think that humans are as good as it gets?

No, God may be more powerfull than us, but this does not make him moraly superior to us. Is the USA inherently superior to Switzerland just because we grind there natiuon to pulp if we so chose? No we are more powerfull, but not superior.

No one is begging or selling their soul. Jesus himself believed that we should surrender to God, after all. We do it not for the reward but because it is what we should do.

Well from an outsiders perspective it certainly looks that way.

Who says I'm repaying the debt of an ancestor? Christ died for all of us, not just the first-century people. I'm not trying to "repay" anything either. I'm serving him, because he served me first.

So you would serve anyone just because they served you? Don't youthink that the debt has been repayed after two-millenia of christians giving their lives for one dude the Romans had enough sense to execute?

I express my devotion to the Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer of the human race. You say no one deserves it, but that's just because you're not seeing worship as how I described it. Our worship to God is deserved because of who he is and what he has done.

No one deserves to be worshipped. Respected-Yes, Admired-Yes, Worshipped-no.

Did you not even read my post? I said I express my devotion (worship) God not because I want to get into heaven first-class, but because of what he has given humanity. You can't get past your own preconceptions and prejudices about worship and look at what it really is.

You say you can judge me based on what I do, but you don't know what I do. If I read this last part right, you just accused me of being a hypocrite. Why? You don't even know me. This is conclusive evidence that you're believing what you want to believe, and not what you learn.

Yes I read your entire post very carefully.
No I don't know what you do, but I have observed what others who share your faith do.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

No, God may be more powerfull than us, but this does not make him moraly superior to us. Is the USA inherently superior to Switzerland just because we grind there natiuon to pulp if we so chose? No we are more powerfull, but not superior.

When I say God is superior, I mean He is morally superior as well. It may not seem that way to us, but we believe it to be so.

Well from an outsiders perspective it certainly looks that way.

The outsider's perspective is often wrong.

So you would serve anyone just because they served you? Don't youthink that the debt has been repayed after two-millenia of christians giving their lives for one dude the Romans had enough sense to execute?

Actually, Christ's sacrifice was much, much deeper than that, and can never be repaid. He did not just get executed, he paid the price for our sins, and only through this do we have hope of reconciliation with God. This is in fact the essence of Christianity; Jesus was not just a martyr to his ideas of love and mercy, his death actually accomplished something so great that it makes possible our eternal happiness. The debt is infinite.

No one deserves to be worshipped. Respected-Yes, Admired-Yes, Worshipped-no.

Sure they do. No human deserves to be worshipped, but God is worthy of all the things that worship entails (which includes respect and admiration). We do not believe God to be the same as a human, and the fact that you think that what we do is so wrong seems to come from the fact that you do not realize this, and view God in human terms.

 

[puglover]

So you would serve anyone just because they served you? Don't youthink that the debt has been repayed after two-millenia of christians giving their lives for one dude the Romans had enough sense to execute?

I can't rely on the actions of former Christians to repay my own debt of gratitude to the diety who sacrificed himself for me.

No one deserves to be worshipped. Respected-Yes, Admired-Yes, Worshipped-no.

The poster above me answered this quite clearly.

Yes I read your entire post very carefully.
No I don't know what you do, but I have observed what others who share your faith do.

If you won't care to listen to other Christians because you have a solid image of Christianity already built up in your mind, why did you post in this thread?

 

[El_Machinae]

When I say God is superior, I mean He is morally superior as well. It may not seem that way to us, but we believe it to be so.

Really? Or am I misreading?
I know you conflict a bit with other Christians on this, but I was under the impression that you didn't think God was morally superior (or decided morality), just that He knew what was best when He proscribed against certain sins.

I mean, I'm not morally superior to a child when I tell them to not eat poison, but I'm still right.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I mean that God is morally superior because not only does he know what is best (as I have a grater understanding of morality than a child) but because he always does what is right. He may not determine morality, but He always does it.

 

[El_Machinae]

I mean that God is morally superior because not only does he know what is best (as I have a grater understanding of morality than a child) but because he always does what is right. He may not determine morality, but He always does it.

Ah, this doesn't really conflict with what your wrote - I misunderstood. This is what I thought you believed.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

And we all know CS Lewis is the bomb, his writings are really excellent.

Quoted for truth. One of my favorite writers. I was this close to writing this thread off. Excellent name drop!

 

[MobBoss]

Yes, baptisation and religious indoctrination is forcing people. Could you tell me how it isn't?

Huh? Wow, I must be missing something. We christians have baptisism gangs roaming the streets dunking people against their will?

Man, I got to sign up for that duty. Sounds like fun.

But truthfully, people get baptized because they ask to be, or a parent asks it for a child.......not because its forced upon them.

 

[Masquerouge]

or a parent asks it for a child.......not because its forced upon them.

We could discuss how a parent asking for his/her kid to be baptized is or is not forced conversion.

While I don't bear any scars or have any kind of trauma, I wish I had not been baptized as a baby. Just in order to have a say, you know.