Cookbook #2 - horrible difficulty

[Fippy]

Okay we have passed the set deadline,
chatting can start.

 

[Qactus]

I settled on the stone and set up the second city so it grabs the copper and shares the clam. My aim was The Great Lighthouse and I'm curious to see if the opinions differ on pursuing that project vs. the Pyramids given we have stone. I valued GLH highly because of many coastal settling opportunities and the synergy with the ORG lighthouse that helps our food-poor capital. Pyramids I would value higher with more food.
Unfortunately I made the mistake of researching Wheel before Sailing. While hooking up copper is always important, the barb threat was over so I wasn't immediately in need of an axeman. Had I gone Sailing directly, the lighthouse would have been chopped already and I could recommend my save. By delaying sailing for the wheel I think I made a bad choice that on deity one can not afford.
Interested to see how others fared, haven't looked at any of the saves yet.

 

[Anysense]

I haven't given this map much thought yet, a bit busy at the moment, but it seems that the most important thing on this map is Conctruction (apart from avoiding dogpile).
Definitely BW before AH; teching AH first was a huge mistake on my part.
Little room for expansion, just enough for a nice compact setup for typical construction breakout. Any ideas what else it could be good for?

 

[Lain]

I do value Pyramids quite highly, can switch between Representation/Police State later whenever needed. Also pretty low happy cap otherwise. Wish I had thought more about Sailing for a cheap lighthouse though, not much food around. Maybe do that next?

Bit worried about expansion in my game, but the plan was to grab copper with a 3rd city at the very least and then just smash whoever steals our land by then. Also want to get Pyramids at all cost, so delaying settlers (no great spots for the moment anyway). River would be nice, but needs worker turns which aren't available yet.

 

[krikav]

Clumsy of me, I didn't make notes when I played...
I played bad and had rotten luck on top of that, so I'm in a very bad position.
Lost my initial warrior (got cornered, jumped into a forest and lost at 20-30% odds.)
Was behind on scouting and fogbusting and had to resort to routing the copper to save the day.
I had to 1-pop whip an axeman in capital when I settled my second city, city culture revealed a archer that could reach the city and I didn't want to gamble that a lone warrior could defend.

 

[krikav]

I completely forgot about org-lighthouses too, perhaps it's time to start following @sampsas example and writing out a note of the traits I'm playing in my games?
In hindsight, settling on the stone was best.
I'm always very hesitant about walking away from freshwater when I have no grains available, in this case, probably way too much.
Didn't think too much about the stone wonders either, starting with myst+mining and stone, I should probably have considered early masonry more.

 

[Fippy]

More used to deity tuff maps (than immortal), so i can give better feedback on this one

Lymond, well i totally missed tgw lol..useless feedback, edited out.

Msc, something will have to be done against that barb archer, but we have woodie warrior who can move 1e. Teching AH will be a hot discussion topic

Krikav, hmm yep you are missing a clear direction i guess. But you are safe from barbs imo, already an achievement on deity.
Bombay placement is interesting, i cannot find points against that..covers all close green river tiles.

Lain with good fogbust skills, from many terrible maps games
Yup Agri before sailing was a slight oversight, imo..whales can be used like a farm with LH.

Qactus

Spoiler :

Nice fogbusting too.
Wheel before sailing, hmm..well there still could be an archer lurking in the ice, or coming from barb city if you found city 3 as marked, so not totally wrong.
2 more workers might be slight overkill, cos they are fast

 

[lymond]

Will take a look at saves later today. I had looked at a few some days ago. Really like Sampsa's from the first few views.

My - I was very alert to the area you mentioned. There are AI units down there so my warriors there have been moving a little in conjunction with that for a little extra scouting. In other words, the area is safe for the moment. (Shaka and/or Monty scouting archers cleared a couple of barb archers for me, and I killed one on defense as well)

Oh ..and I have GW now although I question my decision to complete it.

 

[Fippy]

Continuing with game thoughts,
Swordnboard

Spoiler :

Almost perfect fogbusting.
Very "organized" game imo, fitting Asoka ~~
Workers setting up cottages just in time, 2nd settler produced already as well.
As in some other games, i would consider teching sailing now. Furs are okay (hunting), but you will urge for food and cheap LH are good here.
I think your game could be popular.

Sampsa, with the most reliable barb defense ~~
I wonder how peoples will rate the loss of forests for tgw thou, Pyras seem out of question but you probably have other plans.

Tonny, I fear that SIP did throw you back, shows how much that early extra hammer counts.

Major Tom, could get barb rushed but an Axe should arrive juuust in time from Delhi with chop or whip.

c^3, nice effort but no extra hammer also slowed you down. Barbs seem well under control, copper road might be considered overkill (sheep mine nice early).

Gumbolt, good settler progress and barb defense. Forests now look too valuable to complete chops (Pyras?)

Anysense, hmmm i doubt your game will be rated low for going AH. While you look behind compared to others, there's good potential left, and barbs should not bother you. Ofc there will be big urge for another worker, city #2 not settled yet seems less problematic if there are few good spots.

MeowZedung, slight overkill on warriors (they also cost $ early on deity )
Could have been a workboat if teching fishing sooner.
Sadly your settler runs into the wrong direction, horsies spot too far away and you have copper or fish closer.

 

[Fippy]

Sorry i totally messed that up Lymo, will edit

I will stop commenting on your save lol, before i completely embarrass myself.
Looks good overall, yup tgw or 150g..

 

[krikav]

Regarding Sampsas save:

Spoiler :

I don't think the loss of forests are a big deal. I'm really not that hot for building pyramids when there is little or no food. Wine make it likely that we will go for monarchy in any case, and lack of happines can be combated with more and smaller cities.
I'm puzzled by SH though, I can see that it gave a lightning fast borderpop for fishes, but wouldn't the failgold have been better?

Overall, comparing my save with others:

Spoiler :

Yes... It's really obvious how important an extra early hammer is, and in this game you get it T0 instead of the usual T1 when you climb a PH, so you don't even lose the ~10 commerce 2f 1h you would have gotten in T0.
Losing a warrior early and having to road copper and finally whip a axeman was bad enough, but when I compare other saves to mine it's really embarassing how bad my position is.

AH early... Not really sure it's all that bad, we are starved of food and that sheep will help, especially if one places a city where I did place bombay.

 

[lymond]

I would remind folks to save the game with your name. A couple of folks did not.


My, I just discovered Sailing

 

[sampsa]

Yep I'm pretty torn on what to think about my game, especially completing stonehenge. Thought getting the fish quickly is a nice bonus. Agree with Lain that Mids is the thing and it might be a bit hard to complete in my game (maybe in copper city though?).

Then there is the barb city blocker... Don't really know how annoying it will prove to be. Of course, it's possible to capture it with help from AI units and if someone else gets it, at least we can steal techs from it.

 

[krikav]

I see both negatives and positives with that barb city.
A well placed flatland barb city isn't that horrid if one has copper imo. Only problem is if an AI grabs it first.

 

[Swordnboard]

A few preliminary comments for everyone:

Spoiler Alphabetical Listing :

Spoiler Anysense :

• Nice fogbust. I might slightly prefer a more agressive movement to the south, especially with the mongol scout likely flushing out barbs.
• Early development of research tiles makes me less concerned about tech path
• Expansion may be a bit slow, but good space will quickly run out so you can convert the extra forests into the mids.

Spoiler c^3 :

• Good fogbust.
• Not settling on the stone realy holds you back. AH is a bit too slow via agriculture (using hunting as the prereq could unlock fur, making the research impact less harsh). Similarly, going for pottery before AH (mine the sheep) could have helped get research back on track.
• I like the partial built axe for safety.

Spoiler Gumbolt :

• Hunting teched but fur unused is a bit of a strange choice. The research pays back quickly but only if we have the camp .
• Fogbust shows a good effort and should turn out fine, just a bit of bad luck with the infiltrating archer.
• Nice job on getting the settlers out. Bombay being at 1 pop is a bit concerning (wants to work copper=hard to grow)

Spoiler Krikav :

• Bombay placement is really interesting! Gives me something to think about from my own save.
• I like pottery here. Sailing can be good too as people say, but it's still roughly 30 production for 1 food per turn, which is an OK-not-great payback. Granary is probably comparable to better.
• Definitely need to settle on the stone. I wouldn't say we need the exploration workboat just yet.
• Without the barbarian threat, I wouldn't have built the copper roads. As things stand, it makes a lot of sense. Glad you have the axeman.

Spoiler Lain :

• Interesting chain of pre-chops. The pyramids are good, but not sure I would sell out this early for them.
• Top-tier fogbusting. Bombay helps quite a bit on this front, but may be a little worse than the copper site (I'm not sure).
• As discussed by others, I would probably do sailing before AH/Writ here, especially with Bombay. An alternative is wheel/pottery, which makes the green tiles more attractive and diminishes the value of lighthouses.

Spoiler Lymond :

• Nice exploration/fogbust hybrid with the great wall.
• Not sure if bombay is better here than the copper spot (it's close). Not sure if we need the third workboat for exploration at this stage, but OK since you have sailing and may get writing in not too long. Is GLH planned, or Pyras? May need more forests in Delhi, but a whip overflow or two could also be possible to help.
• A little concerned by not having a second worker or third settler even started.

Spoiler Major Tom :

• Could do with some more warriors, feels a little unsafe. Perhaps chopping more could preserve expansion rate but allow a couple warriors.
• Not sure how long the fur has been sitting unused. If just a couple turns for micro reasons, no worries. Otherwise that's something to improve.
• Masonry has been a bit underutilized (only small failgold investment, SH will probably be built soon).
• Researching the wheel is good as long as pottery is planned to make use of it

Spoiler MZD :

• Decent fogbust. Could do with one fewer warrior, or more aggressively place the ones we have in the south.
• Weird road is probably not the best use of worker turns. Copper is an awesome tile that makes me prefer a northernly second city.
• AH may not have been necessary (cheaper fishing suffices for food). Earlier BW would help with chops. Coincidentally, you've given all of us who didn't research AH a cheesy advantage of knowing where the horse is /.

Spoiler Mscellaneous :

• The barbarian archer is really terrifying. Having no copper road is extra scary. May turn out fine, but I'd be scared for my survival playing your save. On the same topic, the northern fogbust warrior is probably a little too bold, should be closer in.
• I like that bombay is pop 2, very few people saw this nuance.
• Exploring workboat may be a bit too early. Eventually, it can serve a dual-purpose and improve the fish city.
• AH is underutilized here, especially since you've already mined the sheep.

Spoiler Qactus :

• Nice expansion. Bombay placement has saved a forest but cost quite a few turns of trade route income.
• Wheel before sailing with no designs on pottery probably isn't the best idea. In conjunction with #1 your research could be a bit behind.
• The fogbusting situation is quite defensible, but has gaps in the south. Use the mongol archer as an opportunity to plug up that hole.

Spoiler Sampsa :

• This is a really interesting approach . Basically no chops left, but you've set up enough food to get by with some whipping.
• I like the potential of getting a Gspy with this crowd. can be a lot of research with reluctant traders.
• The barbarian cities are annoying. If you can wait to expand, they'll turn out cheaper than self-built ones with AI help, but the near-term expansion prospects are rough. Unlike tonny, they don't have the advantage of helping you fogbust since you've already built the GW.
• Finishing the wonders seems like a good decision, I wouldn't consider saving either of those wonders for failgold. Pretty sure that both of them are significantly beter than the 150 gold you could reap from failgolding, especially since you will have a smaller empire that doesn't shed gold too fast.

Spoiler Swordnboard :

• I think I played pretty well here. Fogbusting, expansion, and techpath all seem pretty good.
• Bombay being able to grow while Delhi finishes a settler, then switch to green cottages makes a lot of sense to me
• Hunting and sailing are close, went for hunting since it offers both happy cap and commerce.
• Not sure about where city #3 should go? I was thinking the green river spot, but both the fish spot and Krikav's location are interesting. At this point I'm leaning towards the fish spot I would say.
• Bombay's partial axe seems unnecessary with the good fogbust. Maybe should be a granary, not sure.

Spoiler Tonny :

• Should probably settle on the stone. Masonry is a bit underutilized for just the quarry. Not sure what wonders you have planned, could be a decent decision.
• The barb city is a bit annoying, but does alleviate your fogbusting needs

 

[lymond]

My results are in, but I would first make general comment on the game and the thinking of my approach - not to represent any reflection on my game itself. Clearly this is a tough start - coastal/low food. Decent amount of forests around Delhi though. Thinking about worker turns compared to tech and what improvements were available, it seemed clear to me with a Mining start that BW was the best first tech. One can mine sheep and then take advantage of fast worker for fast chopping ..zipping through the forests.

I glanced at all saves then narrowed list to top four or five games, viewed those games again and then ranked accordingly, as follows:

Spoiler Rankings :

#1 Sampsa - When I first saw our resident environmentalist's save several days ago my eyes popped out. I was very surprised that he completed Stonehenge (and the GW!) much less attempted it. Interesting ploy on chopping Henge in Bombay for faster border pop for fish. In some ways his game and Lain's, and mine (their's are better for the record) for that matter, have similarities. Sampsa and Lain are so close it was hard to decide. GW/Stonehenge is a big gamble that could pay off in some ways, while Lain clearly has a line on Mids. Question is..how valuable is Mids here? Oh..we know its value..but so limited food. And regardless, I would not say Mids is completely out of the questions in Sir Sampsa's game. Barb city is not much of a problem with GW in place and could be a boon if we can nab it..not a bad spot really...well, relative to the crap land.

Sampsa also somehow did all that and has 2 workers! He also depleted the ozone layer

My one small complaint is building the mine there that can't be used for some time, when a border pop is imminent such that the forest just N could be choppin'

2 cities. Stonehenge and GW! Lots of choppin'. 2nd settler in progress (1/3). Question mine over forest chop 1N with border pop. Not sure if barb city is good or bad.
bw>masonry>fish
3pop

#2 Lain - Lain is a juggernaut and knows tough Deity maps better than most. As mentioned, I really had a tough call on rating this one compared to Sampsa's. The line on Mids could be huge or somewhat irrelevant for quite some years. I think what really decided it for me was the mistake on not heading straight to sailing which I think is really the right call here with not only low food but Org LHs. Lain does have the most techs...early Hunting/furs probably helped with that..just not sure they were the right techs. Great start none-the-less.

2 cities. Progress on Mids. Pre-chops. Teching starts well, but question no Sailing. Question worker build in Bombay but may be nothing better for now. Good spawnbusting.
bw>fish>hunt>masonry>ag
4pop
1 worker

#3 Sword - I really like Sword's game in many ways. I think his game and Gumbo's represent a bit of an alternative to the approaches sampsa, lain, and myself pursued. For one, Sword settled Bombay N on a spot I would settle next, and honestly I wonder if it is not really the better spot for the first city as opposed to fish city. Nicer synergy with Delhi and more early production with copper. I guess the debate for me on these spots was that getting Bombay near fish meant eventually getting fish running sooner, but the city does little else early. (ha..although Sampsa built Stonehenge there!) Anyway, I think there is strong logic to settling Bombay 3N of Delhi.

In addtion, in lieu of GW, Sword has some very fine spawnbusting setup and a settler 1 turn from birth, which is very strong.

What really dropped Sword's game for me is the tech decisions. Settling on stone demands an earlier masonry and low/food org an early sailing. However, on the other hand, it is a different approach eschewing the wonders or fail gold for straight expansion and economics, so his game provides a solid alternative here for those wishing to pursue it.

Hunt may not be the best next choice here given the route already taken.

bw>fish>tw>pot
4pop
2 workers

Honorable Mention: Gumbo - Lot's of similarities to Sword's game with the advantage of actually having the 2nd settler out the door. I thought Gumbo's worth mentioning as it was extremely close to the 3rd choice for me. Like Sword I questioned the tech decision here, but it is a strong play regardless. Even though Gumbo has a 1t advantage on the 2nd settler to Sword, I rate Sword a little higher in terms of ...relative..tech decisions and the great spawnbusting. For this "alternate" approach I think Sword has a slight edge in the moves already made, such as the cottage in progress.

- Like Bombay/Delhi. 2nd settler is out. Really question Hunt>TW>POT over Sailing/Masonry. Decent spawnbust but could be better.
BW>Fish>Hunt>TW
3pop
2 workers

Overall, I think we have a couple of strong and different alternatives represented by the above selections. I'd say the urgency of the 2nd worker was not an issue here so I did not weight much on its presence, but nice all the same.

I'll post my initial notes in spoilers here:

Spoiler Random thoughts on games :

Anysense - Questionable tech path slowed production...Just one city

c3 - just one city..BW good but no chopping. TW was questionable.

Qactus...2 cities good. Bombay better 1S? Overkill on building workers? TW questionable tech. SW warrior could be better positioned

Tom - 2 cities good. Bombay better 1S? Hunting first not good. At least 1 or 2 more warriors should be busting..may have lost one. Wow, GW went very early in game. Teching TW? More chopping

Tonny - Did not settle on stone hurt game. Fish over BW first. No chopping. 1 city

Lain - 2 cities. Progress on Mids. Pre-chops. Teching starts well, but question no Sailing. Question worker build in Bombay but may be nothing better for now. Good spawnbusting. #2

Sampsa - 2 cities. Stonehenge and GW! Lots of choppin'. 2nd settler in progress. Question mine over forest chop 1N with border pop. Not sure if barb city is good or bad. Lost a warrior or two? #1

Sword - I'd say this is an "alternate approach" to the norm. Settled Bombay where I would have and there is logic that it is the better first city than fish spot. TW/POT over Sailing/Masonry is questionable to me, but he is closest to settling 3rd city than any other save. Not sure cottages are the way to go in Delhi with such low food. Great spawnbusting #3

krikav - seems a bit unfocused. Don't like Bombay spot first. Seems slow on teching with questionable tech path after BW/Fish

misc - like Delhi and Bombay. Stonehenge questionable without Stone - settler woulda been better. Hunt>AH>TW path questionable.

Gumbo - Like Bombay/Delhi. 2nd settler is out. Really question Hunt>TW>POT over Sailing/Masonry. Decent spawnbust but could be better. HM

meow - cookbook is a learning experience, you will do better next time

 

[Swordnboard]

Let's talk about sailing.
I see potential for lighthouses in fish city (critical, +1F for the fish and also makes coast tiles a lot better since there's no green river tiles) and Delhi (OK, +1F for the clams. So many green river tiles suggest working coast tiles may not be worth it).

For Lymond and Sampsa (and Lain, though no sailing), who have fish city already in place, I really do see the benefits since fish city is quite poor w/o a lighthouse. For others, not really sure that 30 hammers for 1 food per turn (and some commerce on the margins before cottages are completed) in Delhi is really worthwhile over pottery, hunting, masonry, etc.

 

[Fippy]

Awesome effort on feedback, Lymo and Sword.
Was really fun reading.

 

[sampsa]

Let's talk about sailing.
I see potential for lighthouses in fish city (critical, +1F for the fish and also makes coast tiles a lot better since there's no green river tiles) and Delhi (OK, +1F for the clams. So many green river tiles suggest working coast tiles may not be worth it).

For Lymond and Sampsa (and Lain, though no sailing), who have fish city already in place, I really do see the benefits since fish city is quite poor w/o a lighthouse. For others, not really sure that 30 hammers for 1 food per turn (and some commerce on the margins before cottages are completed) in Delhi is really worthwhile over pottery, hunting, masonry, etc.

Yeah, I'm also not completely sure about sailing. There are many other beneficial techs (hunting, pottery) so I'm not sure if sailing just for 1-2 lighthouses is best.

 

[krikav]

Since I think it's the only thing of value from my save, I can speak abit about my bombay spot which has been mentioned, and is located on the plains hill one west of the sheep.

Spoiler :

* I had not seen the fish.

* We have two food sources that we can lend to other cities, the clam can be given temporarily to a city north on our peninsula. This site is not contested and can be settled later later.
No other food in sight led me to want a city within reach of the sheep.

* All other things equal, proximity to capital is good with less maintenence and easier defense and tile sharing is very nice for micro optimizations.

* I wanted the +1 hammer (funny that I paid so much attention to this with my second city, when I did not take the opportunity with the capital).

* Save valuable river tiles for farms and cottages. Settling 1N for coastal access could have been an option from this perspective, and certainly better for the city long term. But few things in civ4 is about the long term perspective for individual cities.

* Plenty of warmongerers around. A hill city to load up with archers and wall up is if you see an early red fist or get an early DoW.