Cookbook discussion thread (Game A Sillyman)

[dorhin]

Thank you for the extensive summary, Pangaea!

Stealing workers from sitting bull is usually a good idea, he is not too likely to attack and hard to get good relations with (at least in my experience). It might be different in semi-isolation, but there are enough trade partners on a pangea map.
Settling the gold earlier on is probably the better choice here, I was a bit reluctant to do so due to the high distance from the capital and the fact that shaka is right next to it.
The game by Tonny also looks really intriguing, however the barbarians might spoil the fun

 

[Tonny]

First I'd like to thank @Pangaea for doing a lot of hard work putting the numbers together and @Fippy for starting and overseeing this game.

To make it more difficult for everyone to choose a nice game to proceed with, here are some other numbers.

Spoiler :

Only 1 player has become a Fisherman -> pangaea
4 players did not tech Hunting -> majortom, jnebbe, sillygoat and tonny
6 players teched Mysticism -> pangaea, whisker, noontide, nick723, majortom, gressulf
Only 1 player has built SH -> noontide
5 players did not tech Pottery -> imploding, whisker, mscellaneous, qactus, noontide
Only 1 player skipped AH -> gressulf
4 players have Archery -> imploding, mscellaneous, 5tephen, soundjata
Only 1 player skipped BW -> soundjata
5 players have Writing -> powerfaker, snowbird, soundjata, dorhin, tonny
Only 1 player has built a Library -> tonny

 

[Pangaea]

Found it difficult to pick what game to continue with, but think I have settled on @SillyGoat's game. Capital is settled on the PH (as I did), so it feels more familiar somehow. Two good cities settled in the east as well, claiming copper and gold, and no barbs cities have spawned over there, which might be nice. One DOW on Sitting Bull should be possible to recover from diplomatically, if that is wanted. Barb situation could become dicey with few spawnbusters, but with access to axes now it should be okay. Skipping Hunting is both good and bad. Can't improve the Deer, but means we can build cheap warriors (without gifting away copper). Presumably Shaka will get up to his usual naughtiness in the near future, so if that is on us, having copper will be important.

Took a long hard look at @shakabrade's game too (amongst others), but the killed fish pained me too much

Forgot to check this when doing the overview, but did no other AIs get Alpha? Willem did in my game, which was a bit surprising, but he can sometimes do that when going early Writing.

More generally, it looks like the games that did early Pottery is in a stronger state. Maybe that's a lesson for improvement for some of us?

 

[Nick723]

So how about an Engineering rush ?

Requires Aestetics (en route to Litterature)
Requires Metal Casting (probably self teched)
Construction and Alphabet could be traded (maybe. not used to immortal)
With philosophical trait, we could easily get 3 great scientists (1 for Math, 2 for Machinery and 3 for Engineering ?)

Avoid Meditation and Fishing ofc.

Worth it on this map ?

I think so yes, at least that’s how I’ll try to play it. We’ve got too much land to expand into to attack any earlier in my opinion, and things seem to be setup well for it.
Have never done it like this (bulbing) before so will have to concentrate to not mess it up!

 

[shakabrade]

First of all, thanks to @Fippy and @Pangaea for your efforts and all for the participation. This is extremely fun and educative when you can compare so many different approaches.

T60

Spoiler :

My rationale about the game. It seems that it was a great call to go for Pottery before BW, although just one forest spread to the riverside grassland could have made it much less useful.
Regarding the Fishing and the Writing, I found it that settling the copper to be able to work the fish is bad for two reasons. One, it is a bad site for the 4th or 5th city if you settle it as you will have almost useless city during the expansion when someone needs to provide the workers and some axes. The second reason was that I only saw one maritime resource when I settled and, in abundance of other good spots, no real need to go for Fishing AND KILL THE ENGINEERING BULB PATH. I still want that path open. Also, where I settled allows me to grab wheat and the furs in case that Shaka attacks and we are forced to build units instead of developing the ice region. I really think that we should still leave the Engineering bulb path open with the PHI leader, in case someone wants to go that route.
Regarding the Writing, since I want to settle all the cottage spots as soon as possible without killing the research, I have pushed for additional cities at the cost of Writing as I still think that we will need Granaries before Libraries in practically all cities, and almost all cities can have their cottage to make them commerce neutral in short time. Since the cities will need 3-5 turns to get there, having Writing on T63 is not a problem. It is only delaying Library in Edirne by maybe 1T. I think that sacrificing the Library date will not matter much while we are running 0% slider and waiting the libraries to come online. It is only that if someone wants to make Construction push at 4-5 cities that very early library is a priority to power the Maths chops. When we can settle so many spots as we can now, it is important to work the cottages earlier, (as they grow with time you work them, duh), especially for the gold city which takes some early sacrifice to grow to size 2 so it could keep on growing. It always hurts when you choose to grow your gold city (I could have had 4-5 turns working the gold), but I felt rich enough to afford it to invest into that city.
Other stuff: I lost 2 units. One at 9.9% and the other because I was dumb and moved my scout twice.

Future plans: Look at all games and see if something is setup for especially strong push, need to decide do I want to Elepult, Trebephant or Cuir rush. Raise happy cap, connect trade network to an AI for trade routes, gift a city to SB between me and the Shaka to ensure much more carefree game.

 

[Qactus]

These last two entries are valuable additions, making the choice harder (which is good obviously).
I like @dorhin's compact empire, expansion to the southwest and strong economy even without the gold (yet).
I like @shakabrade's control of the map in terms of expansion, fogbusting and units. This is well prepared against surprises from barbs and neighbours.
In @SillyGoat's save I still like the fact that it's the only one with the wet rice and gold city.

@Nick723 If you want to read a good writeup on the Engineering bulb, I linked one in my last post. It's deity, so everything is a bit faster, but very well executed and written. There are also some shadow game comparisons in that thread (e.g. oracle MC vs. self-tech)

 

[shakabrade]

Discussing T60 games:

Spoiler :

I like @SillyGoat 's game. Managed to get away with far away copper city instead of crappier one I settled quicker to connect, gold city has an improved rice. Infra is good.
What I worry about is safety from barbs as barb spears can come from multiple directions and I am not sure that all the cities have Axes close enough to ensure safety. Also, I probably would not settle into Shaka that much. As soon as you become a land target, he WILL declare and will probably declare anyway. Maybe I am overdoing the safety as I am much more accustomed to Deity timings.
I see a missed opportunity as Edirne would have been a fantastic 2nd city 1N of Rice. Somehow, those games where people settled PH seem pretty strong even with some minor flaws. Maybe it was a superior place to settle.
There are some other otherwise nice games which are likely to lose a city to barbs, which is a shame (but self-inflicted). I see from the beakers that many did not have fogbusting units upkeep.
I will continue with my game (no bias, lol) as I want to compare and there are some long term plans inside the save which still yield no tangible benefit. It is a shame I lost the 2nd scout, as I really need more info if AIs land is worth taking. It is not good not to be sure about the potential rush on T60.

 

[SillyGoat]

Discussing T60 games:

Spoiler :

I like @SillyGoat 's game. Managed to get away with far away copper city instead of crappier one I settled quicker to connect, gold city has an improved rice. Infra is good.
What I worry about is safety from barbs as barb spears can come from multiple directions and I am not sure that all the cities have Axes close enough to ensure safety. Also, I probably would not settle into Shaka that much. As soon as you become a land target, he WILL declare and will probably declare anyway. Maybe I am overdoing the safety as I am much more accustomed to Deity timings.
I see a missed opportunity as Edirne would have been a fantastic 2nd city 1N of Rice. Somehow, those games where people settled PH seem pretty strong even with some minor flaws. Maybe it was a superior place to settle.
There are some other otherwise nice games which are likely to lose a city to barbs, which is a shame (but self-inflicted). I see from the beakers that many did not have fogbusting units upkeep.
I will continue with my game (no bias, lol) as I want to compare and there are some long term plans inside the save which still yield no tangible benefit. It is a shame I lost the 2nd scout, as I really need more info if AIs land is worth taking. It is not good not to be sure about the potential rush on T60.

Spoiler :

Gold city is the only current city that doesn't have either an axe present, within 1 turn's move or whippable with hammers invested. North is spawnbusted which just leaves the jungle to the south. There is a warrior scouting that area on t60 and both Sitting Bull and Willem have had units in the area.

Shaka will be a problem for sure and Sitting Bull needs to be dealt with. I'd think 2 more cities: 1 south of Istanbul for the Cow and shared Calendar resources plus one up north to claim Furs and Horses. Hunting and Masory for spears and walls might be wanted before Alphabet/Aesthetics. I don't think anyone else has Writing at t60 so straight to Alphabet may get there first. EPs were set on Ragnar as I met him before Willem and I didn't bother changing focus so there is tech visibility on Ragnar but not Willem the likely tech leader.

I'm curious to see what people do with the save.

 

[Pangaea]

I will continue with my game (no bias, lol) as I want to compare and there are some long term plans inside the save which still yield no tangible benefit.

Keep in mind that we aren't supposed/allowed to play our own game (at least not back-to-back), because Fippy's intention is to encourage team play. With that in mind, what are the long-term plans you speak of?

 

[Snowbird]

~T100

Spoiler :

For all these dreaming about engineering - at that point I traded for ivory and no one is close to longbows...

Surely, one can be in a better position if an actual effort is put, but between gold and fur (and gems after trading) the game is pretty much done anyway. Lots of effort to squeeze something like 10 turns earlier finish... why bother?

 

[soundjata]

@shakabrade T60

Spoiler :

I'm curious how you could grab the "Edirne spot", as Sitting Bull plopped a city there at T23 in my game.
Settler first maybe ?

 

[drewisfat]

@soundjata worker steal + the resulting war should change SB's plans.

 

[shakabrade]

Still T60 considerations and responses

Spoiler :

Gold city is the only current city that doesn't have either an axe present, within 1 turn's move or whippable with hammers invested. North is spawnbusted which just leaves the jungle to the south. There is a warrior scouting that area on t60 and both Sitting Bull and Willem have had units in the area.

Shaka will be a problem for sure and Sitting Bull needs to be dealt with. I'd think 2 more cities: 1 south of Istanbul for the Cow and shared Calendar resources plus one up north to claim Furs and Horses. Hunting and Masory for spears and walls might be wanted before Alphabet/Aesthetics. I don't think anyone else has Writing at t60 so straight to Alphabet may get there first. EPs were set on Ragnar as I met him before Willem and I didn't bother changing focus so there is tech visibility on Ragnar but not Willem the likely tech leader.

I'm curious to see what people do with the save.

You are right, it is not as bad regarding safety; I got it mixed up with one other game from the 6 I looked at. Too bad about tech on Willem, but nothing that can't be fixed.

Keep in mind that we aren't supposed/allowed to play our own game (at least not back-to-back), because Fippy's intention is to encourage team play. With that in mind, what are the long-term plans you speak of?

Now I see it stated in multiple posts. :facepalm: Long-term plans depend on some info that I could see in my game and others haven't scouted that far. So, it would be a spoiler of a sort for those who were not there yet.

@shakabrade T60

Spoiler :

I'm curious how you could grab the "Edirne spot", as Sitting Bull plopped a city there at T23 in my game.
Settler first maybe ?

Worker steal, as @drewisfat mentioned. I went to check what I get by settling PH instead of SiP and on T2 could see SBs scout. Good sign that he is very near, like the most concluded as well.

 

[Powerfaker]

To jump back to T105...........
(from @SillyGoat save)

Spoiler :

Focus 1 was to settle the contested areas in the south. Some banana +multi sugar spot would be a nice GP-city. It's also strategic, cutting of SB. The Ivory/Fish spot further south would be a great HE-city. City types we currently lack. After these ones the fur city was a priority
Focus 2 was to head for Literature => GLib.
Focus 3 get some GS

Spoiler :

Immediately a settler from SB moves into the jungle to settle another hopeless city and take a piece of what I wanted to have. Great start, pffft. Most sugars are outside his first ring so I still settle there. And my ivory city needs to compete for the fish with nasty Cre WvO. So I lose that for some turns.

The first wonder to go is the Oacle 1400BC. Guess the wonder builder of the crowd has no stone. SB builds GW, maybe he will build Mids too. For that I'm willing to march through his pityful land.

Of course Shaka at some point shows a red fist. He is Hindu. I have a Hindu city, should I convert? I was also mapping out his territory and met Buddhist Asoka on the other side,(met Vicky as well the same turn) No unit build up on my side, and yay a few turns later he DoWs Asoka. They're still fighting T105

I spend ± 30 turns to get to Aestethics. Nobody gets Alpha meanwhile. I get a little worried while picking up Myst/Mason/piece of Poly Then >35T later than @Pangaea save finally Vicky has it. I only have Aest to offer but now I use my GS to bulb Math and get Alpha+Sailing for those. Willem takes Aest for Poly+IronW. Tech is powering up now. So in the last 10T I reach Lit and Curr, build GLib in 1T with chops and OF
Another GS finishes the final turn and 180 failgold is cashed from ToA.

After vision on Ragnar's teching I put excess EP on Vicky. Just got a ranking message, They're both at the bottom of land posession. Apparently Asoka is quite big (besides us). Willem will most likely become the best techer here.

 

[Benginal]

I played from @jnebbe's turn 60 save.

Initial thoughts:

Spoiler :

SIP on plains hill is fine. I prefer SIP since commerce is going to be hard to come by in the early game, and the extra river tiles are valuable. But settling on a riverside plains hill is rarely bad.

Tough luck about the jungle growth on the rice.

That’s a lot of warriors. 12 is probably too many, but there is a lot of tundra to the north and jungle to the south. Another worker might have been preferable to the warriors you just built in Istanbul and Edirne, I think.

The north is not quite totally fogbusted. Barbs spawn anywhere in the dark, unless two tiles away from a unit, but borders don’t count for this 2-tile rule! For example, barbs can spawn on the copper in the Northwest. Some moving around can cover everything though, so no harm.

Excellent job prioritizing cottages! You already have two hamlets. Very nice. Generally try to work the power tiles first. Very unusual that you’d not want to be working the cows with either city.

Having writing almost in is very nice. Can build a library in Ankara for border pops and super powering the flood plains cottages. Istanbul will obviously get one. Actually everywhere

I think my plan is to take the settler you have and settle him in Shaka’s face on a plains hill. It’s a good city site that I hadn’t scouted in my game, and then when Shaka attacks us (inevitably?) he attacks a hill. Then build another settler very quickly for the river spot near the gems.

I’ll head straight to literature for aesthetics trade bait and Great Library

I think it’s too late now to attack anybody without siege. So I’ll just hunker down and play peacefully trying to make sure we have room for a solid number of cities.

Focusing on granaries everywhere is great. Nice to have those already in place.

Overall a very nice position for somebody who’s never won immortal before!

Turns 61-104

Spoiler :

My super aggressive settler ambitions were almost immediately thwarted by an incoming settler party from Shaka. So I had to make some adjustments. I got a little greedy and hoped he was aiming for the grassland hill in reach of the corn, which it turns out he was, phew. Still has the sheep in the inner ring and will eventually be okay. But it serves its main job of blocking off land for us and being a hilled city lightening rod.

I also settled the middle river city pretty shortly after.

I kept the slider all the way down, as planned. I built libraries around the place and waited for the Great Scientist to build an Academy before turning the slider up. Most of the turnset was just trying to be somewhat careful managing tiles and moving the workers around. Also Shaka got a fist at maybe turn 65. I moved over some of the warriors and panic teched hunting -> archery. Turns out to be a false alarm as there wasn’t a DOW. But he’s still a threat, so I built a few archers out on the Eastern Front, just to be on the safe side.

Sitting Bull built the Pyramids, so we can go capture those at some point.

At turn 81 I got Hinduism spread to me, and everybody is in it? So I switched.

Shaka does as Shaka does. I was optimistic he was going somewhere else. But no real worries since I still prepared. What was awkward is that he didn't go for the hill city but rather the gold/floodplains one. Moved some troops, whipped an axe into a wall, so no sweat:

I bribed in Ragnar to the war, just to try and increase the odds Shaka will talk. He still refuses to. Which isn't really a problem, but is somewhat annoying. Maybe bringing Ragnar in wasn't great, since Shaka may roll over him. Ragnar is weirdly small.

Don’t remember what exactly the trades were. But something like Aesthetics for Alphabet. Aesthetics for IW and mysticism. Aesthetics for poly and masonry. Alphabet for Math. And I self teched literature. No beakers invested in anything else, but we have a few options.

State of the Empire

Spoiler :

7 cities, Great Library completed in capital, two more easy city spots up north. Can probably fit in a city or two down south as well. A bit of a bummer that Willem settled next to our gems.

Haven't teched fishing. So the engineering bulb is an option. Currency, and CS, to Lib also works. Another option is Music for the GA combined with Calendar for MoM. Lots of options going forward from here. Easiest would be to head to Cuirassiers. But culture is still on the table if you're so interested!

 

[Pangaea]

Played from @SillyGoat's excellent save as well, and will write about it before reading @Powerfaker's update.

Spoiler T105 from SillyGoat's save :

Felt very strange to take up the reins from another player. Everything was in great shape really, so it was just about continuing without messing up too badly. Wasn't sure what to do with the spy points since Willem kept all on us, so I decided to split it on Willem and Ragnar. Slowly gained demo view on Willem and he pretty soon stopped investing points on us too. Maybe I should have swapped entirely to Willem, but it was nice to have tech view on at least one dude.

Settled some more cities and grabbed a barb city. Worked on some GS, with the intent of doing the Engineering bulb. So many good cities so the happiness cap was annoying, but a Fur city helped. Unfortunately I failed to scout north properly, and ended up killing the Crabs Had an axe there that i should have moved, but simply forgot about it in the wee hours of the night. But on the bright side, due to roading up there we got instant happy increase, so that was nice. And a crab city wouldn't be all that good anyway, and ofc we can't get Fishing for a long time still. So maybe not that big of a mistake?

Shaka started plotting in Turn 65 (and Sitting Bull settled in our face in T61). Naturally I was concerned about Shaka and had to take some propping-up measures in the east. But didn't see many units in his western border, so maybe he plotted on somebody else? Brought a warrior through his land to see what was up, and saw a small stack of units approach Asoka's border, which I also discovered over there. War horns, and a few turns later Shaka ask me to join the war. I hesitantly agree. Only for Shaka to peace out a bit later with no cities changing hands. Said exploring warrior ended up within striking distance to an Indian chariot, so I deleted him. Shame, as it would have been nice to explore Victoria's core, but he was probably a goner anyway. Didn't want to give him 'free' war success.

Also bribed Ragnar into the war, thinking we could get some shared war diplo with him too. Got nothing with Shaka because he ended it too soon, but have a little with Ragnar now, and also Victoria. She was plotting when we discovered her, and joined the war against Asoka of her own will.

Perhaps this was a mistake because it ultimately postponed Engineering, but I spent one of the GS to bulb Metal Casting. The economy at the time was almost at a standstill (breaking even at 20% percent) and it would have taken a long time. Could get out a forge in the capital and increase the happy cap. Bulbed Machinery when the next GS came out. Only to learn that we needed Archery to build Crossbows. Oops! Teched both that and Masonry myself, to keep some future trades as an option. Nobody wanted to share Masonry at the time anyway, except Willem who I had nothing on. Just before the ding-ding I was able to get Currency from him for Metal Casting, so it turned out allright. The third GS for the Engineering bulb is unfortunately a ways off, I should have started scientists in a city earlier. However, given how totally backwards all the AIs are (except Willem), war in the near future will be a walkover. Nobody has Monarchy yet, so longbows should be way off.

Felt kinda weird to keep going for the Eng bulb when I was able to get Ivory from Willem. Could have researched HBR and get a superior unit. Crossbows always leave me a bit disappointed. They are only 6-strength and can't get city raider (iirc), so they aren't all that good attackers. Elephants with 8-strength are much better and more versatile. Against Shaka crossbows might still be very nice, though, because he tends to have many metal units due to his UU.

Not really done anything in T105 yet as I figured it was better for people to make decisions themselves, if anybody want to take this one further. We have 9 cities and a few crossbows and catas have been produced, in addition to the 10+ Axes+Swords. 4 axes are watching Sitting Bull, though, as I'm still a little concerned about him, as we are still his worst enemy. Same religion now, though, as I went Judaism when Shaka flipped to it (Willem has been spamming missionaries in this game). Hopefully we can soon open borders with Sitting Bull, and then kill him at a later time. Seems more prudent to invade east here, as pretty much everybody are over there. Also, we are currently at war with Asoka, though nothing has happened. Victoria seem to be smacking him up pretty good, though. Has taken a city, and two GGs have been borne. One each, I think.

Overview of land and tech situation

Spoiler :

The sight of that crab hurts my feeling, but nothing that can be done.

Well... did think about gifting away the city to 3-city Ragnar and then razing it later, but it didn't seem worth the effort.

No Monarchy or Mono yet, but the happiness situation is good now, and there is still the Hammam if required (it was just erected in the capital).

Basically everybody are cavemen, although Willem is doing allright. He always does.

Haven't traded very heavily, so once Ragnar is back to Pleased, it should be possible to trade a bit with him. If he gets something good (working on Calendar, yay!).

 

[Qactus]

Spoiler My T105 from SillyGoat's T60 :

Well, that was great fun.
After Writing I settled three more cities (Wheat/Fur, Cow/Banana/Sugar and Corn/Ivory) and saved gold for a while until I had three libraries up and running. Then self-teched Hunting (for the camps) and Metal Casting, the plan being to trade that for Alphabet and as much as possible on the way towards Engineering bulb.
First Scientist waited because without tech visibility I wasn't sure of the trade value for math. In 650BC Victoria was first to Alpha and I could see she was still missing Maths. So I bulbed it and traded it for Iron Working.
Metal Casting was then traded for Alphabet and the backfilling began. Generally I was a bit disappointed with the tech pace.
Had to self-tech Aesthetics and when it was done the second GS was ready to bulb Machinery.
Meanwhile I assembled Axes and some Spears towards Shaka and Sitting Bull just in case.
Willem spread Judaism to me and I didn't convert until he had spread it to all every single one of my cities. Since I was concerned that converting would attract unwanted attention by buddhist Shaka (who hated Asoka and Viccy more than me), I bribed Shaka on Victoria for Metal Casting and Alphabet. They went to war, I became Jewish and Victoria continued trading with me as if nothing happened (-3). To make things even better, Willem was so busy on his mission that he converted Shaka and Sitting Bull as well. So we're all "friends" now, Sitting Bull even opened borders at a certain point.
Got a lot of happies (furs, ivory, gems, wine, spices) but adopted Hereditary Rule nevertheless because I wanted Organized Religion for the forges and failgold.
Sooo, I now have 8 cities, 44 pop, a bunch of forges, building a few crossbowmen.
I have currently 609 fail (plus another 69 this turn) invested in the Temple of Artemis. Can't wait that someone finishes it.
For the Engineering bulb only Construction is missing. And of course the 3rd Scientist whose GP are accumulated in Istanbul, Edirne and Bursa. Ankara generated the 2nd one and then stopped using specialists.
Hmm, what else? I'd say let the Trebs roll

Spoiler Some pictures :

edit: Another nice thing, Willem will have Currency next turn so we can grab that in a trade

 

[Powerfaker]

@Pangaea and @Qactus

Spoiler :

Very nice work towards Engi. Didn't think over that option, because I (would) have a seafood resource. Never realized Engi could be this close already.
Although @Qactus ± 8T earlier (no need to hurry with some GE points), much work needs to be done to get an army, not just trebs, so the start of a war will be less turns earlier probably.
@Qactus nice job to let WvO supply the workboat. The failgold will arrive soon
@Pangaea the crab situation is not really an issue when conquest is on the table.

So Which AI to attack? SB has GLH in @Pangaea but SB has poor / jungled, land and we have no coastal cities to benefit. WvO has no shrine yet. Do we need to be patient with him? Shaka's land would be beneficial quickly, but further away from our cap. Working from west to south to east is probably from logistics point the best.

For the record. My own save can move fast forward in any direction, including elepult as an alternative.......
Boosted by golden ages maybe......

 

[Edarga]

I played from @5tephen 's game. I finished off writing and started on Alphabet. I settled the fur city up north for more gold and happiness. I pumped out some Axes and picked a fight with Shaka, taking one of his cities. But he's swinging back, so that might not have been very smart!

 

[Fippy]

Question for everybody, what would be your preferred amount of turns for the next set?
Was thinking about a long one (~60 turns) so you can fully execute strats or directions.

All suggestions about how we can keep things interesting (cookbooks saw a decline in later turnsets usually) are also very welcome.