solenoozerec
Stranger
Birdjaguar said:I guess Sir Pleb will hit the MA about 1000 BC and win by 0.
He might win it without knights before MA
COTM 05 Pre-Game Discussion
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
He might win it without knights before MA
That's a tall order; do you think he will take up the challenge?
A'AbarachAmadan
Deity
SirPleb said:
Since Typhoon Meari has me sitting indoors on a weekend, thought I'd do my first post. So far I've participated in C4 & G35.
CivGeek disagreed w/ SirPleb and stated 2 warriors is better, but I think we need to look at the map as given. We can get either set by 3750BC. (Assume Settler-W and Worker-Chop in place lets us get a ChScout in 3800BC. Alternate is to delay Chop to get 2 Warriors in 3800BC and 3750BC respectively. - I think.) Since Goody Huts aren't all local, I think the ChScout is better since it can find the distance ones even though 2 Warriors will find more local space. In the end, I can't make up my mind, wish I could get regular scouts. Maybe my first scout move will find hills/mountains or jungle which will make up my mind one way or the other.
I will definately do one of the above instead of the quick granery build. A few short test starts this morning yielded a settler or city EVERY time from my extra scout/s. Seems to make the delay worth it. I know its random and GH distro could be different, but 5 test starts in a row?!
I just downloaded some of the great assist and mod stuff (SnOOpy graphics mods, CivAssist and OCN calculator). Too bad I didn't use CivAssist in C4 and G35!! Are there any others I should be using for the C/GOTMs? Is there any consolidated statistics database that tells me the key things I need to know. (i.e. I know upgrade costs are 3x shield costs, but can't find that anywhere. Or how to calculate gp rush costs?)
Things I've learned from reading Posts (specific thanks to SirPleb as I actually printed out your QSC to analyze/study it). I've learned I don't need so many defensive units, that more than my settler factory should build settlers and republic is a viable military option (used to like Feudalism).
Randy
Prince
AlanH said:
I never said I could do it, just that I thick thats about the fastest it could be done. 6 is about my record & most games about 8ish.
Maybe I can throw in another factor to confuse youA'AbarachAmadan said:
. What about unit support? Building twice as many units to use Warriors rather than Chasqui Scouts means you're probably going to be paying unit support costs, whereas the Chasqui scouts could be free in Despotism.
I suppose that depends on how far you take the strategy. 1 scout or 2 warriors isn't a problem, 2 scouts or 4 warriors/3 scouts or 6 warriors would be advantage scouts until you get city #2. I can't see it going beyond that; would anybody spend 80 shields to build 4 C. scouts? Also with a warrior strategy, you do have the option of building 3 or 5 warriors and putting the saved shields (compared to another scout) elsewhere.Dianthus said:Maybe I can throw in another factor to confuse you
Dianthus said:Maybe I can throw in another factor to confuse you
Civgeek said:
There is one side effect of all those goodie huts. In a couple practice games, I found myself getting a fair number (5-6) of conscript warriors. The were useful on one hand to explore the jungle\forest\marsh but after the Republic slingshot, I had to disband alot of them to avoid the 2gpt support.
Mistfit
Deity
With the obvious move being sending the scout to the Northeast and North I believe our coveted Food bonus will be to the south. I may be going buggy-eyed but it seems to me that the tile 2 S of the current location is a river tile. My guess is that Ainwood has tricked us and is going to make the majority of the players move N or west when in fact our best starting position will be to the south. Ok...Maybe I need to cut down on the Caffine.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
solenoozerec said:He might win it without knights before MA
I do plan to go for a conquest victory. If any one tile islands get claimed by AIs then I might change to domination. Trying for conquest with only Ancient Age units sounds like a fun idea. I'm going to wait till a while into the game before deciding whether to go for it. If there are a few Civs around with early defensive UUs (e.g. Hoplites, Impis, Numidian Mercenaries) then it will be less appealing. And the geography may have an impact. In either case (hurrying to Knights or Cavalry vs. making do with Horsemen and Swordsmen) I'd start out the same, going for Republic asap and exploring aggressively. I think the first time the two approaches diverge will be either a very tempting (or unavoidable) early war, or when most first tier techs are commonly known. At that point I'll want to choose between slowing AI research to stay in Ancient Times or speeding it to help reach Chivalry.Birdjaguar said:
You're welcome, and thank you for mentioning it! I've been wondering whether it was still worthwhile to write and post QSC logs, now I know that it is and I'll keep doing itA'AbarachAmadan said:
PS, Welcome to CivFanatics!
In my practice games the tech pace has been very out of balance. One or two civs might be at my pace and all the others are way behind. Some questions for you or others:SirPleb said:
At regent, if going for an early conquest or domination win, would you build any improvements other than barracks?
Would you alter your "war in Republic" strategy if you see an early MA victory?
When do you turn your settler factory off?
Very early, would you send a settler 10-15 turns away to settle at luxuries or keep a tight build and get there 4-5 cities later?
Thanks
solenoozerec
Stranger
SirPleb said:
It is and I suspect it is doable.At least, it was certainly possible in GOTM34 to get whole continent without knights.
I do not promise anything (everything depends on real conditions), however I do consider a variant to stop research after horseback riding. Maybe I will manage to win only around 1300AD or even after... but it will be before MA.
SirPleb said:
Sure - republic, otherwise what for to stop research?
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
Probably one granary, maybe more. Perhaps also some temples if the production or pop rush capacity can be spared - building up some culture would allow casually holding captured cities. Possibly a couple of harbors, marketplaces, and/or aqueducts if the other Civs research the necessary techs and there seems to be value in them, i.e. the game will last long enough for them to pay off. Definitely not courthouses (game won't last long enough for them to pay off) nor libraries (ancient conquest implies too little research for these to matter.)Birdjaguar said:
Probably not. The cost of getting Republic is not very high in Conquests due to the Philosophy free tech. The increased revenue and productivity, and the switch to cash rushing instead of pop rushing are big benefits which I think pay off in a very short time. Still (see solenoozerec quote below) it is tempting to consider a Despotic conquest. I think it is possible but is it better? Hmmm....Birdjaguar said:
Probably never. It helps score to keep filling in cleared land with new towns and it also helps revenue. For a fair part of the game, in Republic, each new town is immediately worth 3gpt - 2gpt for its unit support and 1 for the town. An additional 2gpt if its citizen is immediately changed to a taxman. If the beginning region is cramped then the settler factory may spend some time producing military but I expect it would still switch back to producing settlers later on.Birdjaguar said:
Hmmm, like a lot of stuff this dependsBirdjaguar said:
Mainly on how many luxuries we have closer to home. Zero or one and I'd say yes, I'd walk a settler some distance to make sure I claimed another luxury. Three or more and I wouldn't. Two, probably not. The other factor affecting this is whether the settler is heading in a direction which will be an early region of contention. If so then I'd hesitate to rush forward to claim the luxury - it might be better to wait a bit and then take the luxury in the normal flow of invasion than reach out earlier to a forward position which would end up requiring defense. Me too, that seems like a crazy idea but might work. I think I would want both Horseback Riding and Iron Working. Staying in Despotism might work with just these units. Horsemen and Swordsmen are 30 shields. So each captured corrupt town can pop rush one of these 10 turns later. Swordsmen would have a special value in a Despotic approach because they'd be the main way to usefully spend gold, building warriors and using gold to upgrade them.solenoozerec said:
I think one should give monarchy some consideration, if going for an AA conquest.
CoL may not be needed at all, so researching it is somehat wasteful.
Poly may even be available for trade, when writing is researched. In that case we could get philosophy-monarchy slingshot and get the expansion (agricultural 3-food city center) and production push quite a bit earlier.
Money from tiles will be not as important with rapid expansion and many corrupt cities.
Edit: With these considerations, I think early contacts are even more important.
I will definitely make a chasqui first and just suffer the few turns delay on granary and settler.
CoL may not be needed at all, so researching it is somehat wasteful.
Poly may even be available for trade, when writing is researched. In that case we could get philosophy-monarchy slingshot and get the expansion (agricultural 3-food city center) and production push quite a bit earlier.
Money from tiles will be not as important with rapid expansion and many corrupt cities.
Edit: With these considerations, I think early contacts are even more important.
I will definitely make a chasqui first and just suffer the few turns delay on granary and settler.
Thanks Sir Pleb!
solenoozerec
Stranger
SirPleb said:
Sorry, I probably didn't make it clear in my previous message.
I am not going to stay in despotism. May be it is possible, but not for me, at least, not yet. I was planing to go to respublic as soon as possible, but then stop research after horseback riding. Saved money can be used for rushing units this way.Under despotism I do not see benefits of stoping research.
I also prefer Respublic over Monarchy at this level. Monarchy is better when you cannot stop a war whenever you want.
Mistfit
Deity
Somthing I have seen the elite players mention doing is Pop Rushing units in Despotism. Is there a good article somewhere explaining the when and where this is used to it's fullest and the positive and negitive aspects of doing so? Or would one of you be willing to shed some light on this technique for me? I have never utilized this in game play.
solenoozerec
Stranger
Mistfit said:
I need to worn you that I am new to GOTM (COTM5 will be my 5th GOTM ever), so do not take my words as an experts opinion.
Major problems of pop rushing under despotism are shrinking population and unhappy people. Population is a major indicator of civilization power and productivity. Population and its moods are also a large component of your score.
It is probably possible to trade these components of to increase military forces and achieve a faster conquest. I do not know. I am very skeptical that such tactic will be good for domination, though. I am not going to risk and check this tactic in this game. Maybe in later games
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