COTM 13: First spoiler (end of ancient age)

[cas]

Can a open class player ask for help in the Hunting Tips ? The way the rules are worded, Conquest-class only ? Deity is beyond my skills and I'm really in need of advice beginning the IA.

Thanks for putting the map together. I know you toned it down a bit too much since I'm still alive starting the IA. Not in a great position to win, but not having my arse handed to me like GOTM43 either.



cas

 

[Renata]

@ cas -- PM ainwood for that question. I know he intended for the Hunting Tips thread to be Conquest only.

Renata

 

[AlanH]

Even if Ainwood agrees to Open players asking for help in the Hunting thread, please note that the only one that's open currently is the Ancient era one, so you'd have to wait for the second thread to open before posting for IA advice.

 

[MeteorPunch]

France was my favorite civ back in the vanilla days, so I was looking forward to this one.

My strategy was to employ the lethal 10-turn settler factory strategy (the diety AI's won't know what hit them). The nearby forests helped out, providing shields for the three granaries I built. I built my cities on the gold hills and with all these rivers + commercial bonus and decent trading, have been able to stay not too far behind in tech.

Does anyone think culture 100k is very doable? I was thinking that if I could secure the home continent (somehow) that would give a huge city base for attempting this.

I'm still surviving last months diety game, hoping to get it done soon so I can continue playing.

1000 BC stats
6 towns
14 population
4 settlers
5 workers
5 warriors
3 granaries
2 libraries
1 temple
1 wall

MA in 450 BC
13 towns
43 population
8 workers
5 warriors
1 spearman
4 libraries
3 granaries
2 barracks
1 temple
1 wall

450 BC. Almost every AI Civ has a city on the home continent.

 

[cas]

Open class.

I have to learn to take better notes and use civassist2 for those cool minimap progessions.

I made some early mistakes and it hurt me...more and more as the game progresses. Amazing how you can see the domino effect of mistakes throughout a Deity game.

Mistake#1...not sending a warrior straight north. My first warrior went east...then north and met Arabia (2630) and Portugal (2400ish). That coupled with my initial research choice of writing meant Paris did not have a granary when the first Settler was produced and my initial tech trades were weak. Also did not see the northern fur until Arabia had a settler there. Mistake#2...second warrior went straight west and then I brought him back rather than sit and wait for other contacts. Mistake#3 trying for Republic slingshot and missing badly sometime around 1300bc. Mistake#4 should have expanded more west and let Arabia have a couple of towns to my south. My general research choices and tech trading need major improvement to play at this level.

Entered MA approx 300bc and my opponents are up to at least Invention/Theology. Rome is starting to outpace everyone on tech...badly. Great Library is not on the starting continent, so it will be hard to catch up.

1000bc stats
7 cities, 21 pop
5 workers, 17 warriors, 2 curragh
0 barracks, 4 granaries
Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Mathematics, Writing, Mysticism, Polytheism
69 gold, Bronze working in 1 turn
contacts: Arabia, Portugal, Egypt, Aztec
Score: 341

Not good at all, but I've improved from GOTM43 and should be able to reach my goal of one muskateer...if there is saltpeter anywhere nearby.



cas

 

[Sabre]

Like just about everyone I settled on the gold and used the extra commerce to make a run at Philosophy. I started out with 3 warriors followed by a settler and a granary. I targeted the north wheat and east cow and game first as they were easier to road to then all that tasty land to the west. These 4 towns were dedicated to settlers after getting their granary and a worker. Any other town that was about to hit pop 3 also built a settler. In this way I managed to stay at 0-10% on the lux, optimizing my research ability. I managed to spread out nicely, with 9 towns at the 1000bc mark - that seems to be a typical mark, so I'm happy.

Arabia and Portugal were very aggressive in their settling and I had to play some fancy maneuvering to stall their settlers long enough for me to claim the land I wanted. I got the north iron, but it's under some culture pressure so I also laid claim to the south iron as a backup. I missed out on the gems, but managed to get all of the incense and all but one of the furs.

The science pace was incredible and, luckily for me, the Arabs and Portugese both remained unaware of the westerners and consistantly researched different techs than the others. Here is my lightning fast tech dates.

2850bc - Pottery, Bronze Working from Portugal for Masonry
2850bc - Ceremonial Burial from Arabia for Masonry
2270bc - Writing
1650bc - Philosophy
1650bc - Mysticism, Iron Working, Warrior Code from Arabia for Writing and 3gpt
1650bc - gift Writing to Portugal - they had techs but wouldn't take Writing, I figured correctly that Philosophy would be more appetizing to them
1650bc - The Wheel from Portugal for Philosophy
1650bc - Mathematics from Arabia for the Wheel, Philosophy
1650bc - Map Making for free - bleh MM isn't enough to get Currency or Polytheism - no big surprise really
1625bc - Polytheism from Arabia for Map Making, 10gpt - Orleans had grown a pop giving me that extra oomph to make a deal
1625bc - Horseback Riding from Portugal for Polytheism, Map Making
1100bc - Code of Laws from Rome for 10gpt
1100bc - Currency from Arabia for Code of Laws
1075bc - Construction (plus 15gpt) from Egypt for Currency (I had already researched about half that tech making it cheaper)

Three turns before 1000bc I enter the Middle Ages. Easily my fastest pace through the AA ever. With as much commerce available and the smoking fast tech of the AI, I might make a run at space with diplo as a backup. That said, I don't think I'll be doing much warmongering. I might gang up on Arabia with Portugal to gain some of the land the Arabians have poached, but I don't know that I'll need much more land than what I have now.

Side note: It took me until 390bc to qualify for this spoiler as the Incas were reluctant to sail my way. I finally got a galley out that way - all my other contacts came from camping a warrior across from the Aztecs.

 

[PoorAxl]

Does anyone think culture 100k is very doable? I was thinking that if I could secure the home continent (somehow) that would give a huge city base for attempting this.

I doubt it is doable. I have got a little bit more cities than you have, but the AI is so fast in research and building that I am still behind in culture. To get some more cities from AI would cost a lot of investment into military, which I would rather spend on culture.

Nevertheless, I may try it. What about very condense city placement?

 

[Megalou]

I doubt it is doable.

No, and why would you try it? In my book it sounds much worse to be a non-vegetarian. Is anyone of us likely to become a warmongerer in RL?

 

[Zelda's Man]

1075bc - Construction (plus 15gpt) from Egypt for Currency (I had already researched about half that tech making it cheaper)

Do techs really become cheaper to buy as you research more of it? I was unaware of this and if it is true, it would probably change my strategy. If true, is the reduced price calculated by how many beakers are invested or how many turns before you learn it?

 

[budweiser]

It's true. I'm pretty sure it must be based on beakers. I'm so stubborn that I wont buy a tech I am researching if the AI offers to sell it cheap. I feel like I am wasting all the beakers I already put in.

Also, I am pretty sure the reverse is true for the AI as well. Thats why they sometimes wont give you any money if you offer to sell them a tech - they are currently researching it themselves and are just a few turns away.

 

[Sabre]

Do techs really become cheaper to buy as you research more of it? I was unaware of this and if it is true, it would probably change my strategy. If true, is the reduced price calculated by how many beakers are invested or how many turns before you learn it?

As far as I know it's how many beakers you've researched. It works the other way too. If a civ has almost researched a tech you'll be hard pressed to get them to give up anything of value for it.

 

[Sabre]

It's true. I'm pretty sure it must be based on beakers. I'm so stubborn that I wont buy a tech I am researching if the AI offers to sell it cheap. I feel like I am wasting all the beakers I already put in.

I feel that way sometimes, but I figure if I can get that tech quicker I can get on to trying for another monopoly. Just consider those beakers as saved gold.

 

[Jason Fliegel]

Well, I'm nowhere near a Diety-class player, so I decided to play this one Conquest class. Here we go!

4000 BC -- Scout #1 goes northwest, then west, revealing more hills. Scout #2 goes south 2 squares, also discovering more hills. I don't see anything spectacular, so I found Paris in place and start building a granary. I also start minimal research on Writing. My worker and my settler head southwest.

3950 -- Scout #1 goes noth, finding furs. I decide I'll send my settler to claim them. Scout #2 heads south, revealing more BGs. The worker starts a mine.

3900 -- More exploration reveals the incense and the shore.

3800 -- Scout #2 has now found another source of furs.

3750 -- I meet the Arabs and sell them Masonry in exchange for Ceremonial Burial and 10 gold.

3700 -- I found Orleans and start on a warrior.

3050 -- An Arabian Stack of Doom is heading toward Orleans. I switch my production of an Orleans worker to an Orleans Warrior, meaning it will be defended by 2 warriors when they DOW. I trade Alphabet for Bronze Working, so at least they won't have anything to extort from me.

3000 -- Now there are 5 Arabian warriors across the river from Orleans (i.e. they can attack next turn) and 3 more one square away. My 2 warriors will be fortified and will have the across-the-river bonus, but I'm not optimistic. Sure enough, IBT, the Arabs attack. I manage to kill one of their warriors, but lose Orleans.

2800 -- With the warrior SOD converging on aris, I meet Portugal and get Warrior Code + 10 gold in exchange for Ceremonial Burial.

2750 -- My spearman kills one warrior but falls to another. I finish another Spearman the same turn, so Paris remains defended by a warrior and a spearman. I start on another spearman.

2670 -- The RNG is on my side for once -- my Spearman holds off 2 warriors AND becomes a veteran.

2590 -- I finish another spearman and start another one.

2430 -- I lose a scout when he wanders into a fog and ends his turn next to an Arabian warrior. I finsih a spearman and start working on an archer.

2070 -- Time to strike back! My army -- 3 archers and a veteran spearman -- head to Orleans, leaving Paris defended by an Elite spear, a regular spear, and a warrior.

1950 -- My three archers manage to kill one spearman between the three of them, leaving two archers dead and the third one red-lined. To hell with you, RNG.

1870 -- I buy Irown Working from Portugal for 286 gold. My gamble doesn't pay off, as there's no iron near Paris. In other news, my newly minted archer attacks a fortified warrior and loses without scratchign the jerk. Seriously -- did I do something to anger the RNG?

1750 -- I get Writing and promptly trade it to Portugal for the Wheel.

1125 -- I forgot to make a note of the fact that I founded Lyons near the horses in an effor tot pump up my war machine, but it's a moot point now; the Arabs just captured it. Let's see if I can take it back.

1075 -- Hurrah! Lyons is mine again! I take the opportunity to cut my losses, since losing Lyons means the Arabs will actually talk peace on terms that don't cripple me (well, not any more than I'm already crippled. I think everyone else is about 3 techs from the Middle Ages and I'm still messing around with Horseback Riding and Code of Laws. But I digress.) Anyway, they pay me 55 gold for peace and I take it.

1000 -- Well, here it is at 1000 BC. Let's assess. I have:
1 city
1 town
124 gold
4 happy citizens
3 unhappy citizens
1 warrior
1 scout
4 archers
3 spearmen
1 embassy (with Portugal)
All first tier techs, plus writing and iron working.

I suppose I could be doing worse, right? Right?

440 AD -- I launch myself into the Middle Ages by trading my extra incense to the Aztecs in exchange for Map Making, Ivory, and 40 gold. I'm the last to make it to the Middle Ages and 3 of my opponents are already in the Industrial Age. Man, this stinks!

 

[Obormot]

I finally found some time to play COTM13, and here is my first spoiler:

Opening and exploration
I settled at the spot, since i didn't know pottery and didn't want to research it, i built 5 warriors then a settler (the same turn as growth to size 3, sped up by forest chop). I leaved one of the warriors as MP, and sent others to explore. They quickly spotted the food bonuses around Paris (Cow to the East, 2X Wheat to the North, dear to the SE and deer to the W), which made nice city locations. Later the warriors found Arabs and the Portuguese and spotted Aztec borders (on the other continent), that could be seen from our continent. I've fortified one of the warriors there, waiting for the Aztec culture to grow, so that i can make a contact. They didn't build any culture, but they landed a settler pair in 1550BC, which allowed me to make the contact. (I've met all others too, but onlu in the MA).

Expansion
I wanted to grab all the food bonuses nearby with my productive cities, but they were quite far, so i used ridiculously loose spacing (to decrease rank corruption, which is the more important one, in high-food cities): the distance between my core cities was actually larger then in OCP! (But i could fill the gap later, when food would not be so important). I wanted to build a granary in all high-food cities and pumped out settlers and workers untill i grabbed all productive areas, all the food bonuses, luxuries and resources nearby, after that i wanted switched to barracks and military. Since i advanced to MA quite soon, i only had 4 cities at that time, i grabbed the cow with my first city, and wheat with the next 2 cities. And i had one settler ready to settle near the Eastern deer next turn.

Research and tech trading
I checked F10 and found out that many civs start with pottery and i didn't research it. I also found out that many start with Alphabet, so the republic slingshot was propably not possible, and i decided to go straight for philosophy. I traded Masonry for Pottery when i met the Arabs for granaries. I also hoped that the Piramids would be built somewhere close to me (later built in Lisbon). I researched Writing at max, and traded it for Math, BW and the Wheel with Portuguese and Arabs. I was still confident that i'll get Philosophy first, cause i know that AIs go for MM first. Then i researched Philosophy at max and took Currency as a free tech. (I was a bit lucky with that - i got philo first in 1625, while DaveMcW got it in 1650 and didn't get anything from it - strange, but i like it ) I traded Philosophy to Arabs and Portuguese, but kept Currency, cause nobody knew Construction and Polytheism yet and Currency has a low priority to the AI. In 1550BC i met the Aztecs, who new Construction, and the Portuguese learned Polytheism by that time, so after some trading i advanced to the MA.

EDIT: i forgot to mention, that i play predator.

 

[pindicator]

COTM13 is my first xOTM in over a year -- in fact one of my few games in that time as well -- but despite the rust and even if this is my first diety level game ever, I decided to give open a shot. I felt confident.

Now I feel humbled.

In my initial expansion I opted to move south and west primarily -- and possibly lost good wheat because of it. But I picked up all the grassland in those areas and even far enough to pick up the second horses in the far southwest. Even if I didn't pick up the first fur north of the starting spot, I made up for it picking up incense and furs in the south.

I tried for the republic slingshot, and I forgot a much-needed trick that would have let me succeed. I had forgotten that it was possible to research philosophy, switch to the F4 screen, and trade techs. As is, when I started CoL research nobody yet had writing, and yet Portugal managed to beat me to CoL by one turn and Arabia beat me to Philo by 8 turns. After that I committed one of my biggest gaffes in the game, and that was to Republic on a 50turn research pace. 50 turns of gold-hoarding isn't a terrible idea, but to do it in despotism...

Finally at 150BC I bought Construction and entered the Middle Ages. But I could have been in a lot earlier had I played my opening better.

The AIs did not war and this hurt me as well. The Aztecs fought with Rome for a while, but only took a few cities. I know that my course lies north through Arabia, and have been building up my horsemen and catapults for the eventual push.

QSC Results @ 1000BC

8 Cities
20 Citizens, 8 happy
1 Settler
6 Workers
11 Warriors
2 Chariots
2 Curraghs
8 gold
93 land tiles
Techs: BW, Mas, Alph, Pot, Wheel, WC, CB, Myst, Writ, Math, CoL, Philo

My lands at 150BC:

 

[solenoozerec]

Open. Going for whatever comes out, most likely highest scoring loss.
GOTM43 took a lot of my time and still I had to retire. So in this game, to save time, I decided to play fast without extensive micromanaging and without QSC log (just brief notes).

Here are the major events:

4000 Found Paris
produced 5 warriors

3000 Contact with Arabia traded Masonry for Pottery

2900 Orleans founded. Contact with Prortugal.

2380 Writing

2190 Portugal – The Colossus

1910 Inca - Pyramids

1650 Portugal - Oracle

1625 Arabia demanded writing. This is deity . And of course they sold it to Portugal.

1475 CoL. Sold it for CB, WC, The Wheel and IW.

1250 I did research Philosophy before Arabia and Portugal. But apparently someone got it first

Sold it for Horseback Riding and Mysticism.

1200 Inca - The Mausoleum of Mausollos. Byzantine - Great Lighthouse.

Map at 1K BC



950 Aztecs - Statue of Zeus

850 Arabs - ToA, Portugal - Great Wall.

800 Contact with Aztecs

630 Republic and revolt with anarchy for 6 turns. Although Egypt and Aztecs knew Republic, others did not, so I traded it for Poly, Map Making, Mathematics, Curency and Construction and entered MA

Here is the map at 630 BC:


Plans to build many horsemen and to capture ToA from Arabs as soon as possible.

 

[GoodGame]

I'm confused!

If you settle on a resource, don't you lose those bonuses in favor of the default city center scheme?

 

[DaveMcW]

The only bonus you lose is food. You keep gold and shields.

You also can't mine the tile, but you get +1 shield at size 7 and +2 shields at size 13.

 

[Genghis069]

Open (eh, why not?)

I decided I needed to play a couple practice (randomly generated) games as I have never done Deity before, and I struggle mightily with Emperor. In my first trial game, I pretty much got pwned. I decided to start a 2nd, but this time dropping down to Emperor. Here I did better - grew to about 12 cities by 0 AD, but couldn't keep pace and quit on the verge of elimination around 1300 AD.

After this defeat, I realized that I might do better if I log by turns QSC style, forcing me to think about each move I make. I think it takes some of the fun out of the game doing such a tedious, administrative task, but the result was as anticipated - away we go! (full log will be found in QSC)

4000 BC: Paris founded, Worker mines BG to S. 2 Warriors.
3450 BC: Find the wheat to the north, Furs to NW.
3400 BC: Pottery, Researching Writing for minimum. Paris switches from Barracks to Granary.
3250 BC: Contact with Arabia.
3150 BC: Receive CB + 14g for Masonry from Arabia.
3000 BC: Granary complete, Settler started.
2630 BC: Orleans founded S of wheat.
2470 BC: 5th Warrior, Orleans starts Granary. Contact with Portugal.
2110 BC: See Gems along E coast, kinda far N. Nobody's trading anything...
1950 BC: Lyons stupidly founded ON wheat N of Orleans. Portugal makes Colossus, Inca finish Pyramids.
1750 BC: Most of Arabia mapped, but where is everyone else?
1700 BC: Tours founded SW of cows.
1675 BC: Finally found Portugal borders.
1625 BC: Arabia just built a city SW of Paris...
1450 BC: Marseilles founded 2W, 1NW from Orleans on coast. Learned Writing. Trades: Writing to Arabia for Myst., Math and 43g. Writing and 266g to Portugal for BW, WC and Wheel.
1350 BC: Chartres founded SW of Horses. Portugal makes me pay 29g.
1325 BC: Embassies with Portugal and Arabia. Mecca 11 turns from ToA, Lisbon loaded and already has Colossus and Oracle.
1200 BC: Inca thankfully beats Arabia to ToA. Paris building Temple.
1150 BC: Avignon founded near Incense S of Paris.
1125 BC: Philo. researched. Trade Philo. + 51g to Portugal for HBR and IW. Arabia gives me 39g for it.
1100 BC: Besancon founded 2 S, 3 SW of Paris on hill. Arabia now has 3 cities SW of Paris and keep funnelling spears and settlers through my territory to get there.
1000 BC: QSC report: 2675 score. I'm not unhappy about this at all.
875 BC: Rouen founded on E coast on river directly W of fish.
850 BC: Grenoble founded 1N of Iron on S coast.
825 BC: Marseilles produces a Curragh that finds everyone by 0 AD, mostly by running into their ships as opposed to their cities.
775 BC: Dijon and Amiens founded to the east.
650 BC: Lots of connected happiness: Horses, Furs, Incense and soon Iron.
510 BC: Poiters founded. Portugal has foothold in SE part of continent.
410 BC: Toulouse founded on S coast.
290 BC: Inca builds Nasca W of gold on SE part of continent. Bayonne founded SE of Incense line. Aztecs creeping up SW part of the continent.
250 BC: Portugal and Arabia go to war!

I missed the exact date where I moved to MA, but I purchased Construction after researching Currency. Definitely in the AD's. I've been 3-5 techs behind most of the last millenium or so, but I'm in no immediate danger, have 15 cities, and I'm keeping pace in the power rankings with all but Portugal and Inca (By 420 AD I have 16 Swords, 8 MI). Creeping up on Byzantine for 6th in points. With Portugal blasting Arabia from behind, I can hopefully mop up whatever remains of Arabia; namely the 5 cities to the SW of Paris and 2 to the NE. Being so far separated from Mecca should make this easy regardless.

Regardless, I've already surpassed any expectations I had coming into this COTM, and I'll happily report my defeat if/when it happens.

Map from 150 BC, slightly before reaching MA.

 

[shortguy]

This has been perhaps the most frustrating game of Civilization I've ever played. But that's for the MA spoiler.

The ancient age was very uneventful in my game. My expansion was absolutely awful. At 1000 BC I had:

7 cities
11 pop
1 settler
4 workers
11 warriors
1 archer

I went for philosophy but did not get it first. Next I went for literature, which I think I did get first. After that I went for CoL and then Republic. I drew 6 turns anarchy and then had the last 4 or so ancient age techs to research, each of which I finished in about 4-6 turns. I entered the MA sometime around 100 AD. I capped out at about 12 cities, with most of the western peninsula being taken by people from the other continent. After expansion I intensified worker builds, and I irrigated lots of land once in Republic. Needing to catch up on population, I shot for +4 or +5 food in all cities. I was behind but I had some hope, as all the other civs were in constant war. The plan for the MA was to go through the upper half of the tech tree and get a monopoly over 1 or 2 lagging civs so that I could make up some of the lower half with trades.