Could religion become too customizable

[Inspector Javert]

I read in one of the articles that you can customize your religion, for instance one of the beliefs is God of War, and another is Idol Worship.

Wouldn't this defeat the purpose of traditionally monotheistic religions such as Christianity Judaism and Islam. Idol worship is expressly forbidden in Judaism. I know it's possible to use your imagination and say for instance that your religion is a sect (since there have been instances of idol worship in Jewish history, though these instances normally lead to invasion and enslavement)

So what do you guys think is customizing the religion watering it down again to where all religions could end up the same?

 

[AriochIV]

Each "religion" in the game is nothing more than an icon and a name, and you can change the name. Everything else is completely customizable.

You might prefer a system in which each religion has fixed historical benefits, but Firaxis will never do this, because they are terrified of people saying, "my religion is underpowered!! Why do you hate my religion, infidel?"

 

[ShahJahanII]

I think that customizable religions are the only logical, non-discriminatory way of making religions unique in terms of gameplay.
I started off a little apprehensive about religion, but the more I learn about it, the more I like it.
It makes perfect sense that you should have a Pantheon belief, Founder Belief, 2 follower beliefs, and an enhancer belief.
This follows the flow of real-world religions to some degree, and could be tons of fun.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Each "religion" in the game is nothing more than an icon and a name, and you can change the name. Everything else is completely customizable.

You might prefer a system in which each religion has fixed benefits, but Firaxis will never do this, because they are terrified of people saying, "my religion is underpowered!! Why do you hate my religion, infidel?"

I had the same feeling though I think it's sad as it would very cool if each religion had it's own unique benefits or rules. Though I can see how that has the danger of being very un-PC, though I don't think they'd be discriminatory intentionally and it's not discriminatory if it's accurate, though "accurate" means different things to different people. I suppose there really was no other way. A pox on the easily offended.

 

[ShahJahanII]

I had the same feeling though I think it's sad as it would very cool if each religion had it's own unique benefits or rules. Though I can see how that has the danger of being very un-PC.

We can always mod tons of new beliefs into the game, or make it so each religion starts off with benefits.
Ethics aside, the system they proposed is better for gameplay, IMHO.
It allows the civs that do found religions to cater to there own needs, sort of like what people did in real life.

 

[CivilizedPlayer]

Yes, the current idea is to make the name "Judaism" no more than a word and an icon. Which initial religion you choose doesn't matter, as they are all the same; and you can even rename them if you want. I remember reading in one article, it said the people over at Firaxis like to call they're religion "Sidism".

I like this system, as it allows religions to be customized and I think it will make the game more interesting and flexible. It would be sort of boring (and frustrating, and difficult to balance) if each religion came with their own beliefs preset.

 

[snarzberry]

It's actually a fairly brilliant idea they've come up with here, get around perceived religious favouritism and provide lots of interesting gameplay choices while adding some nice flavour to the experience. Balance problems will likely abound initially and will need to be patched, but the general idea is a great one. If I want to play a holy war/crusader destroy all infidels christian or muslim empire then I can, it's my personal take on an alternative history and no one needs to be offended by that.

If we just relax our realism expectation slightly then it's clear that this is an implementation of religion that provides with a lot of scope for interesting gameplay choices/strategy paths and that's really the main business here right? All that's left to see is if they really knock this out of the park or not.

 

[Monthar]

Also keep in mind that the Civ series is a strategy game series not a simulation series. As such it's never been intended for us to completely copy real world history, but rather to answer the big question: "What if?"

What if the 10 commandments said you should build idols to represent god?
What if Buddha was Celtic?
What if ...

With the amount of customization G&K is giving to religions, we can answer, "What if?" an infinite number of times, thanks to not only the number of beliefs they give us, but also letting us mod in more of them.

 

[Buccaneer]

It's like most things in the game (religion, policies, buildings, wonders, leaders, etc.) - the icons and names are just for flavor. All that matters are the bonuses/attributes and the choices one have to make. The key, which civ does well for the most part, is to give you enough variety so that each game feels different. It sounds like with G&K religion and their beliefs, they will give you enough choices, as well as lots to choose from.

 

[snarzberry]

Think about a baptist, a catholic and a mormon discussing what christianity is. They each have very different perspectives and will claim that their interpretation is correct (usually, not counting people like my uncle rob a catholic priest who is the kind of religious person who believes that God is present in every religion and even in the thinking of non-believers). So, beyond some core beliefs there really is no such thing as the official take on christianity and what it means. So customizing it to your own preference, and sub in any other religion here, makes a lot of sense to me. I don't want to offend anyone, but I don't want my game experience diluted trying to impossibly cater to the gazillion different views and opinions that various people hold about the worlds religions.

 

[turingmachine]

Also, keep in mind, the customization option still lets you role-play and choose which benefits you think Judaism or Islam or Shinto would have.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I'm guessing things like "God of War" are for the Pantheon.

 

[Monthar]

I'm guessing things like "God of War" are for the Pantheon.

Yep and if you think of all the "gods" in each of the know Pantheons (Roman, Greek, Egyptian, etc.), that's probably the types of beliefs we'll see for the Pantheon in game.

So far we know of God of War, Goddess of the Hunt, God of the Seas, plus a couple others that weren't gods.

 

[Deggial]

So what do you guys think is customizing the religion watering it down again to where all religions could end up the same?

Additionally to everything written so far in this thread, please remember that each choice blocks this respective believe for all other religions. So, if anything, religions in G&K will be much more multifaceted than their real counterpart.

 

[dexters]

I had the same feeling though I think it's sad as it would very cool if each religion had it's own unique benefits or rules. Though I can see how that has the danger of being very un-PC, though I don't think they'd be discriminatory intentionally and it's not discriminatory if it's accurate, though "accurate" means different things to different people. I suppose there really was no other way. A pox on the easily offended.

Religion is what you make of it. It's customizable in the sense that it takes a modular approach to building up its benefits, but ultimately, your religion is what you make of it, and it is something you build for the duration of the game.

That I think is the most appealing part of it. It's yours, you own it.

 

[Babri]

You might prefer a system in which each religion has fixed historical benefits, but Firaxis will never do this, because they are terrified of people saying, "my religion is underpowered!! Why do you hate my religion, infidel?"

True. Especially many people have different interpretation of some religions & that might cause unneccessary conflicts & ranting. It would make sense if some beliefs are incompatible with each other though.

 

[Alk3Crimson]

Each "religion" in the game is nothing more than an icon and a name, and you can change the name. Everything else is completely customizable.

You might prefer a system in which each religion has fixed historical benefits, but Firaxis will never do this, because they are terrified of people saying, "my religion is underpowered!! Why do you hate my religion, infidel?"

This pretty much. Imagine the firestorm that would be created if Firaxis was just like "Okay, Islam is the warmonger religion, Buddhism is for culture, Christianity is for wealth." Not only would be be uninteresting from a gameplay stance, but I'm sure it would be pretty offensive to a lot of people.

 

[potatosalad]

I can deal with a lack of historical accuracy. I like to feel that I'm making history in the Civilization games, not following it. But I am a little worried that the system will be a little too simplistic. With social policies, you get rewarded for sticking to the same policy tree, which makes for some complex strategic decisions, since you always have to consider the prerequisite policies in addition to the policies themselves. So a policy that seems more beneficial than all others might not be the best choice if you have to invest loads of culture just to unlock it, as opposed to getting a weaker policy that will start benefiting you right away. You have to take it all into account, and it's nearly impossible to predict which choice will lead to the ideal outcome, which makes the game more interesting.

With religion, however, I fear that it will all boil down to
1. Pick most beneficial belief
2. Pick second most beneficial belief
3. Pick third most beneficial belief
etc, etc

Obviously, even if it will turn out like that, it will still spice up the game quite a bit, since figuring out which belief if most beneficial hopefully won't be that easy, and it will obviously depend from game to game. But being able to pick freely means we miss out on one opportunity for tough strategic decisions.

On a completely different note, though. I can't be the only one who really likes the idea of creating ridiculous custom religions from a blank slate. Just pondering the question "if I founded a religion revolving around me, what would the core beliefs and values be?" will be awesome, but also trying to accurately represent a joke or fictional religion and seeing millions of people accept it as the true way.

 

[Alk3Crimson]

I can deal with a lack of historical accuracy. I like to feel that I'm making history in the Civilization games, not following it. But I am a little worried that the system will be a little too simplistic. With social policies, you get rewarded for sticking to the same policy tree, which makes for some complex strategic decisions, since you always have to consider the prerequisite policies in addition to the policies themselves. So a policy that seems more beneficial than all others might not be the best choice if you have to invest loads of culture just to unlock it, as opposed to getting a weaker policy that will start benefiting you right away. You have to take it all into account, and it's nearly impossible to predict which choice will lead to the ideal outcome, which makes the game more interesting.

With religion, however, I fear that it will all boil down to
1. Pick most beneficial belief
2. Pick second most beneficial belief
3. Pick third most beneficial belief
etc, etc

Obviously, even if it will turn out like that, it will still spice up the game quite a bit, since figuring out which belief if most beneficial hopefully won't be that easy, and it will obviously depend from game to game. But being able to pick freely means we miss out on one opportunity for tough strategic decisions.

On a completely different note, though. I can't be the only one who really likes the idea of creating ridiculous custom religions from a blank slate. Just pondering the question "if I founded a religion revolving around me, what would the core beliefs and values be?" will be awesome, but also trying to accurately represent a joke or fictional religion and seeing millions of people accept it as the true way.

But the "most" beneficial belief will vary wildly depending on your civ/strategy. I don't think there will be a cut and dry "best" belief. It's all situational.

 

[dexters]

On history - accuracy isn't an issue. Civ5 seems to model the grand sweep of history while opening the door to new outcomes. Issues with Civ4 religion was it was tied to tech research and it ignored the polytheistic traditions that existed for thousands of years before the more familiar religions came into being.

In civ4 all religions can be founded in the same game. Not to mention they all offer the same benefit.

It's nice that that they're trying something difficult and introducing 'faith' currency for religion. This will reduce crowding while maintaining scarcity by limiting how easily 'faith' is earned. Ed Beach recently commented how costs of Great Prophets scale up exponentially during the renaissance as religion fades. That's a neat way to incentivize change. No more late game prophet spamming to add extra happiness. lol.