Creation/Force/Dimensional Lore

[Kael]

Enchantment is the sphere of supernatural enchantment. Extending the defining properties of its target past its physical bounds. Enchantment can't make a sword bouncy, because bouncy isnt a defining property of a sword. It could make it stronger, sharper or faster.

In men Nantosuelta doesnt make them stronger, smarter or faster. That is not the defining characteristics of a man. She makes heroes, she brings them closer to the divine. Faith is a confusing word for it, and probably mixes it too closely to the sphere of Hope. She is the goddess of perfection (at least the good aspects of that).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still like to say that Nantosualta/Enchantment is the opposite of Ceridwen/Dimensional; while Ceridwen is all about the value of the connections between things and people with no regard for their intrinsic worth, Nantusualta is about the recognition and enjoyment of this intrinsic worth without worry over its shortcomings or the superiority of other things. A relationship characterized by the dimensional sphere is an unhealthy one all about codependency and control, one characterized by Enchantment is a healthy and happy one in which people enjoy each other's companionship without worrying about where things are going or how things appear. Ceridwen is about the desires that torment men, and Nantosuelta about contentment and inner peace. The dimensional sphere makes us loose ourselves in our position and actions, while enchantment leads us to find ourselves and leads us to be all we can be. In contrast with how enchantments are often viewed, as tricks and illusions, the sphere's motto would be esse quam videri.

That is the impression I've always gotten of her character (at least since AoI), but its connection to the spells seems very week until you said that the sphere extends the intrinsic properties instead of imparting new ones.

 

[Kael]

Thats all fair. And Nantosuelta and Ceridwen are directly opposed. In a perfect world they would be extremes of the same system, Nantosuelta focusing on insular qualities and Ceridwen is all external. Neither aspect is better or worse than the other. But since Ceridwen is evil her aspect is corrupted and now where Nantosuelta builds Ceridwen tears apart, where Nantosuelta strengthens, Cerdiwen weakens.

 

[the_fish]

It's occurred to me that the mechanic that most exemplifies Force is the concept of National Borders.

These are heavily enforced boundaries arising naturally from the 'collective unconscious' of the population at large. You can influence the people, but you can't influence the boundary. You can't even cross into them without a mutual agreement.

Therefore, in addition to diplomacy, Force spells could be concerned with enforcing these borders during times of war, repelling invaders from lands where they don't belong. In game terms, pushing units out of your lands and heavily punishing the ones that remain until they retreat, but being useless outside of your borders.

I'll try to come up with some ideas along these lines and post them in the other thread.

EDIT: While I've got your attention, how close is a stealing or leeching mechanic to the Dimensional sphere? It creates an unnatural connection (between the target and the recipient), in addition to the actual teleportation of resources. For example, a gypsy-wagon-esque building that skims off 5% commerce and gives it to your capital.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Hmm...enforcing boarders seems like a really good idea. I'm not a fan of many world spells, so I was thinking of removing them from my modmod anyway. As such, having a Force III spell with the effect of Sanctuary could be really cool. It would need some balancing, of course. I think this spell would need a delay and kill the caster.


If the map didn't update boarders itself so often I'd say it may also be good to have a force spell that changes who owns the tile, regardless of culture.

 

[the_fish]

If the map didn't update boarders itself so often I'd say it may also be good to have a force spell that changes who owns the tile, regardless of culture.

Isn't this the opposite of force? You're imposing your will against the wishes of the majority.

Anyway, I'm having a blank for spells at the moment, though I'm pretty certain now that Force should be a very defensive sphere. Ideally, (I) would have something that's useful against the barbs and early attacks, and (III) would be something that actively removes or prevents interlopers. It'd be easier for people to 'get' if these were 'physics themed', without renaming the sphere.

BTW, am I right in assigning:
- Force (Alteration)
- Dimensional (Necromancy)
- Creation (Elementalism?)
?

 

[Corlis]

Thanks for the information guys!

Isn't this the opposite of force? You're imposing your will against the wishes of the majority.

Anyway, I'm having a blank for spells at the moment, though I'm pretty certain now that Force should be a very defensive sphere. Ideally, (I) would have something that's useful against the barbs and early attacks, and (III) would be something that actively removes or prevents interlopers. It'd be easier for people to 'get' if these were 'physics themed', without renaming the sphere.

BTW, am I right in assigning:
- Force (Alteration)
- Dimensional (Necromancy)
- Creation (Elementalism?)
?

I'd have switched Creation and Force, but it's kind of hard to say.

 

[megamanx06]

It would need some balancing, of course. I think this spell would need a delay and kill the caster.

For the part that I didn't quote, I was thinking the exact same thing. However, I don't like the idea of killing off your archmages. Maybe make it only castable in the capitol and has to be maintained (caster can't leave or cast other spells). A Force I spell, which I think most people agree on, is some type of "wall" that increases the defense in a city (maybe even the tile? possible?) that maybe even couldn't be sieged off, based on what I've read here. But it also needs to be maintained.

For Dimension III, would it be possible to create a portal to one tile outside of your capitol, which would allow your enemies to follow your escape route and possibly put you in even more danger? I only say next to your capitol because it seems like it would be hard to make one that could go anywhere and if you made it into your capitol, then it would get confusing if enemies followed you (or could you have them spawn next to your capitol, but you go in it?).

 

[hbar]

[snip]Therefore, in addition to diplomacy, Force spells could be concerned with enforcing these borders during times of war, repelling invaders from lands where they don't belong. In game terms, pushing units out of your lands and heavily punishing the ones that remain until they retreat, but being useless outside of your borders.[/snip]

What about instead of a persistent barrier (which would be hard to balance against and very un-fun) how about a single shot spell with a casting delay that scales with the size of your empire (say, 1 turn per city? 0.5 turn per city?). So if you have a 3 city empire, you have to start casting 3 turns in advance, and when it fires, all enemy units are expelled from your borders with all their movement points expended. They can reenter, but it gives you time to prepare your defenses and ready the spell again.

What are the potential balance issues? Assuming 4 archmages (8 with liches) you could have an unassailable empire of 4 (8) cities, which would be unbalanced (for example, in the case of a tower of mastery/altar victory). Thus, I think the effect should be resistible (perhaps by level e.g. Courage, or a straight percentage e.g. Domination). Also, since to stop the spell requires targeting 'squishies', I think invisible units (read: assassins) should be immune or have a higher resistance chance. On the other hand, Archmages casting this spell would not be out Dominating and Wondering, so it would partially balance itself by ceding the initiative.

 

[Seven05]

If the map didn't update boarders itself so often I'd say it may also be good to have a force spell that changes who owns the tile, regardless of culture.

Could have some fun with this and take advantage of those frequent updates...

You could have the level 1 spell not be a spell you have to cast but rather a passive effect on the unit that applies culture in the 3x3 grid centered on the 'caster.' Useful for extending influence beyond your normal borders for early resource grabs or helping with the 'culture war' with a neighbor. The effect could be increased with Force II and Force III if desired and limited to only work if the 'caster' was within your borders already. Because the culture is updated each turn the border effect would only work when maintained but wouldn't require any micromanaging to maintain aside from moving a unit somewhere and then fortifying it. If desired, this passive effect could turn off on any turn when the caster actually casts a spell.

Force II could be the 'push' spell many people have suggested, simple and effective and handy to have in a pinch when the hippus come raining down with their cavalry. This could also be turned into a one time combat bonus (promo removed after combat) giving the caster 100% chance to withdrawl and -99% attack strength and then duplicating the fear effect of scattering units in the target tile.

Force III could be sanctuary like the Elohim world spell with a much shorter duration but I'm not sure it would work well without the ability to prevent it from being cast every turn. Perhaps a better option would be to only have it affect units within a set range of the caster and within the caster cultural border. This would make it similar in concept to 'push' but a bit more limited. To run with the 'favor the underdog' theme it could also only affect units that are stronger than the caster so it could be used to turn the tide of a battle rather than completely evict the opposition.

If you use the idea of Force II & III increasing the passive effect of the Force I ability they don't need to be as potent by themselves.

 

[megamanx06]

Force II could be the 'push' spell many people have suggested, simple and effective and handy to have in a pinch when the hippus come raining down with their cavalry. This could also be turned into a one time combat bonus (promo removed after combat) giving the caster 100% chance to withdrawl and -99% attack strength and then duplicating the fear effect of scattering units in the target tile.

Unfortunately that would result in very low health for the caster, as well as causing some issues on defense. I like the idea though.

 

[Iceciro]

I've always liked the idea of Force being a "Push" spell that has a chance to knock enemies back, resistable.

This has the effect of splitting stacks into easier-to-hack-down piles in addition to defense.

 

[Tyrs]

And Kael likes that spell, so its a double-win

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

how about a force spell that evicts good and evil units only (maybe damaged angels and demons?) who are within 3 squares of the caster. give the spell a long cooldown period where the caster cannot cast any spells to represent the effort taken to do. its like a miniature restricted sactuary/push.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

seems too situational to be II or III, but too strong to be I. Whats with the angel demon restriciton? why should neutrals be immune to FORCE?

 

[Tyrs]

Force is really Balance, not just shoving people.

 

[the_fish]

Yes, but from what I can gather it depends heavily on where you're shoving people. As long as you push them towards where they're "supposed" to be, and not away, then it works.

Shoving people out of your borders counts as Balance, in this context.

 

[Tyrs]

seems too situational to be II or III, but too strong to be I. Whats with the angel demon restriciton? why should neutrals be immune to FORCE?

I was referring to why neutrals wouldn't be effected, as they are not to one extreme.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

of course, im not sure that is the spirit of "balance". "balance" and "neutrality" are wo totally fdifferent things.

 

[DioBrando]

For the part that I didn't quote, I was thinking the exact same thing. However, I don't like the idea of killing off your archmages. Maybe make it only castable in the capitol and has to be maintained (caster can't leave or cast other spells).

You know how when Mind III is resisted, it disappears from your spell list, and you can choose to pick it again next time your archmage upgrades?

Yeah, that. Make it a one time spell that you can pick up when your archmage upgrades again. The spell shouldn't last longer than 10-15 turns though.