Creationism - an example

[carlosMM]

I haven't read beyond the first page, but why would religious people look for evidence for `Noah's' flood? Doesn't the Bible sort of say that there is no proof of God's work, as proof denies faith? Isn't it wrong of religious people to look for proof?

Good question - the problem is that these people never answer it. I'd be very interested in the answer, too!

 

[The Last Conformist]

Hm. My knowledge of the Bible is less than encyclopedial, but I can't think any such implication in the Bible.

Jesus did supply proof of his crucifixion when Thomas asked for it, and the OT has instances of Yahweh working miracles with the explicit purpose of making his power known.

 

[Timko]

Hm. My knowledge of the Bible is less than encyclopedial, but I can't think any such implication in the Bible.

Jesus did supply proof of his crucifixion when Thomas asked for it, and the OT has instances of Yahweh working miracles with the explicit purpose of making his power known.

Actually a quick look on t'internet would remind me that it's a Douglas Adams line.

The point still stands though---say that someone came along with a time machine, and proved everything in the Bible was true, and also somehow proved that God created the universe in however many days, etc. Then Christians would no longer have faith in God, since it's proven he exists.

 

[sanabas]

The point still stands though---say that someone came along with a time machine, and proved everything in the Bible was true, and also somehow proved that God created the universe in however many days, etc. Then Christians would no longer have faith in God, since it's proven he exists.

And the problem with this would be?

 

[Homie]

Hm. My knowledge of the Bible is less than encyclopedial, but I can't think any such implication in the Bible.

Jesus did supply proof of his crucifixion when Thomas asked for it, and the OT has instances of Yahweh working miracles with the explicit purpose of making his power known.

True, and today he is still making his power known. People are still being healed, miralces still happen. It is just that they are all dismissed are coincidences, or if they cannot be dismissed as coincidences, they are just denied ever happening. Except by the people who personally witnesses them.

 

[ironduck]

And the problem with this would be?

If there's no need for faith there's no need for religion? We'd all know god on a first name basis, talk to him about the weather, etc. No need for religion as god would just be completely obvious.

 

[warpus]

True, and today he is still making his power known. People are still being healed, miralces still happen. It is just that they are all dismissed are coincidences, or if they cannot be dismissed as coincidences, they are just denied ever happening. Except by the people who personally witnesses them.

What miracles?

If they do happen, how do you know it's your God performing them?

 

[Sidhe]

And the problem with this would be?

Easiest question to answer in history, try the gospels for the answer to this one; since life is a lesson where would be the lesson or the free will in knowing that if you were good you would definitely go to heaven even if this is the only proof you ever saw(consider this carefully, it's better if you come to your own conclusions here) Suffice to say central to Christian faith is erm faith and central to the lesson of Christs resurrection is doubt, for few people saw him survive his death and their message if you believe it is one of faith. I was reiterating a previous point made in the Old Testament though.

 

[El_Machinae]

But ... what about Adam, Eve, and doubting Thomas.

I mean, they all had PROOF of God's existence (well, more proof than we have). Are they less blessed?

We're at an advantage (for God's plan) for knowing less than Adam did? Then God's plan is better off for Adam sinning?

 

[Homie]

What miracles?

If they do happen, how do you know it's your God performing them?

Because when do miracles happen in the name of Vishnu or Allah? Never, that's when. All the miracles recorded have happened under the Christian God.

 

[Homie]

And where do you find them? I think the Vatican actually has an archive of recognized miracles, they actually investigate to see if the miracle actually happened.

Also, you could probably find a bunch of testimonies of miracles online. But the thing is, you'd probably dismiss them all anyway. What you need to do is find somebody you personally know - who's a Christian, and ask them if they have ever witnessed a miracle or healing, or if they know of someone who has.

 

[Markus6]

Because when do miracles happen in the name of Vishnu or Allah? Never, that's when. All the miracles recorded have happened under the Christian God.

Thanks! I've just had an exam and I needed a good laugh. Unfortunately I'm a Christian, so I guess I shouldn't be laughing. But to suggest that no other faiths have recorded miracles !

 

[MrCynical]

True, and today he is still making his power known. People are still being healed, miralces still happen. It is just that they are all dismissed are coincidences, or if they cannot be dismissed as coincidences, they are just denied ever happening. Except by the people who personally witnesses them.

I have a few problems with the concept of these being miracles, both morally and practically.

Let's cover practically: Yes, there is a huge list of people who were crippled, terminally ill, etc who have been "miraculously" healed. However all of them contain some element of doubt. I have not seen a single reference in any reliable documentation where someone has unquestionably been healed miraculously. There are no cases where a missing limb or eye has spontaneously reappeared, which would unquestionably be a miracle. It seems suspicious to me that only things which do not involve a blatantly visible change are healed miraculously.

Now for morally: Most religions state categorically that God is omniscent and omnipotent. If God is omnipotent, why does He only miraculously heal an absolutely tiny minority of those who need it. You could argue that every other person who is ill has committed some terrible evil, but given the number of ill newborn children (who incidentally seem to get far less than their fair share of miracles), I don't think this is the case. This strongly implies that either God has the power to heal all the sick, and chooses not to, which is morally unacceptable to me, or God is incapable of healing them. This is obviously not acceptable to any religion, as it would require a God who was not only not omnipotent, but far too weak to perform acts like creation and ultimate judgement.

The only option I can see that is remotely morally acceptable is that God is no longer capable of influencing this universe now for good or ill. Rules must be applied fairly, and if he is capable of helping all the sick he should do so, not just help a tiny minority. Strange as it may sound, I would be very sad to see a genuine miracle, as this would be unquestionable evidence to me that God is either not omnipotent, or is of poor moral fibre. In God's favor though, I have seen no definitive evidence of a genuine miracle, so maybe he is applying the rules fairly.

 

[ironduck]

Because when do miracles happen in the name of Vishnu or Allah? Never, that's when. All the miracles recorded have happened under the Christian God.

Hindu miracles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle#Hindu_views_of_miracles

Islamic miracles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle#Islamic_view_of_miracles

 

[The Last Conformist]

Because when do miracles happen in the name of Vishnu or Allah? Never, that's when. All the miracles recorded have happened under the Christian God.

That comment made my day. Thanks.

 

[Abaddon]

Isn't the general definition of a god the fact they can perform miracles?

 

[ironduck]

Be a superhero with Team CFC - help us perform miracles

 

[punkbass2000]

That comment made my day. Thanks.

 

[warpus]

Because when do miracles happen in the name of Vishnu or Allah? Never, that's when. All the miracles recorded have happened under the Christian God.

Oh, really?

On the night of August 3rd 1998 Allah manifested His magnificence to the people present under the canopy of Madina Wadi GA. During class one of the ladies called out for everyone to look towards the sky, that Allah's name was written therein. All heads turned upwards and gazed at the beautiful site. Some could not see the Ism at first and it seemed that some saw different things at different times. As I looked upwards I was not sure if what I was seeing was really there but I knew it was something because the feeling all around me was different and unexplainable. I kept looking and in the sky I saw Ism Hu written as beautifully as I have ever saw that covered a significant space of the sky. Someone called out again for us to look at Ism Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). Everyone directed their glances to his name which seemed as it spread across the entirety of the sky, what we could see of it. As we watched, Ism Hu and Ism Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) appeared numerous times. Ladies reported as seeing Ar Rahman, Al Ahad, the letters Qaf and Saud. All the while SubhanAllah, Alhamdulilah, Daroods, and an occasional Oh my God (by one of our youngest participans) was heard.

On Thursday 21 September the news swept around the world of the extraordinary miracles of milk-drinking Hindu statues. Never before in history has a simultaneous miracle occurred on such a global scale. Television, radio and newspapers eagerly covered this unique phenomenon, and even sceptical journalists held their milk-filled spoons to the gods -- and watched, humbled, as the milk disappeared. The media coverage was extensive, and although scientists and 'experts' created theories of "capillary absorption" and "mass hysteria", the overwhelming evidence and conclusion was that an unexplainable miracle had occurred

And where do you find them? I think the Vatican actually has an archive of recognized miracles, they actually investigate to see if the miracle actually happened.

Yes, and we can expect the Vatican to not be biased at all.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If this thread stays open past 500 posts, is it a Christian, Hindu, or Islamic miracle?