The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Jovian, I'd say.
Creationism - an example
- Thread starter carlosMM
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That works for me too.
Homie
Anti-Lefty
But there are, I have heard of such a miracle happening in the middle East (forget which country) when a preacher prayed for the people, Jesus appeared and walked across the crowd, where he walked people were healed, including a woman who had a deformed foot that shaped back to normal size and form before people's eyes.MrCynical said:
Of course I realize that this story is very slim since I don't have any footage or even a website to link to. That is because I heard it from another, I didn't read it anywhere. So don't point out how this can hardly be evidence, I am aware of this. I am just telling MrCynical that I have heard of such healings that he is talking about and claiming don't exist.
The immoral dilemma is a good question, it can be hard to answer. I can think of two explanatins, but they are only my personal reflections - so don't hold the Christian faith to my philosophies. Ok, here they are:
1. Most people don't have faith that God will heal. Several passages in the NT speaks of faith for miracles to happen
2. God only dishes out enough miracles for the faith to be around, but not so much that his existence is obvious and thus practically takes away free will.
Then there's the cop-out (which ironically is probably the correct one) that God works in mysterious ways and we cannot fully understand Him because He is so much higher above us intellectually.
But thanks for posting critical questions in a mannered way, instead of just mocking me like these other juveniles.
Homie
Anti-Lefty
ironduck, I read your links. And I must point out that the muslims's miracles are those of the Christians and the Jews recorded in the Bible. These are certainly miracles that Islam recognizes, but they are not miracles performed in the name of Allah, but Jehovah and Jesus. Modern Miracles do not happen in Islam.
Warpus, you quoted a muslim miracle with writing in the sky, could it be cloud formations perhaps? Not mocking, I'm seriously asking.
Also, the Hindu miracle you quoted has been debunked thouroghly, it is simply a matter of temperature and humidity. The statues do not drink the milk, it simply dribbles down their bodies. If you do not believe me, check out this video where a lady reproduces the "miracle" and explains why it is hard to see the milk dribbling down the sides.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8484252350549088567&q=hindu+miracle
Warpus, you quoted a muslim miracle with writing in the sky, could it be cloud formations perhaps? Not mocking, I'm seriously asking.
Also, the Hindu miracle you quoted has been debunked thouroghly, it is simply a matter of temperature and humidity. The statues do not drink the milk, it simply dribbles down their bodies. If you do not believe me, check out this video where a lady reproduces the "miracle" and explains why it is hard to see the milk dribbling down the sides.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8484252350549088567&q=hindu+miracle
Homie
Anti-Lefty
carlosMM said:
Said previously by me:
Homie said:
Thanks for the constructive addition to the discussion carlos.
Homie - how do you deal with jealousy issues?
When I was younger we were told of all these miracles going on in the third world - and so we all had faith that miracles could occur at home too.
Our church had a brain damaged cripple, that we prayed would get healed (much, much praying). I hear that she still goes to church (for over 20 years now), and has been involved with many types of prayer services. Nothing. In fact, people at the church don't even bother praying for her anymore.
When I was younger (a teen), I couldn't figure out how not to be jealous for the girl - especially after hearing about all those African miracles. (edit) so I decided to put less faith on the miracles in Africa occurring.
When I was younger we were told of all these miracles going on in the third world - and so we all had faith that miracles could occur at home too.
Our church had a brain damaged cripple, that we prayed would get healed (much, much praying). I hear that she still goes to church (for over 20 years now), and has been involved with many types of prayer services. Nothing. In fact, people at the church don't even bother praying for her anymore.
When I was younger (a teen), I couldn't figure out how not to be jealous for the girl - especially after hearing about all those African miracles. (edit) so I decided to put less faith on the miracles in Africa occurring.
And that's proof of an actual miracle... how?
Markus6
Prince
Homie said:
Or do point it out, I guess it's up to you...Bill3000 said:
Bluemofia
F=ma
Under Bhuddism, yes.Homie said:
My mom keeps reminding me of this almost every day. It's so annoying. She doesn't know I'm Atheist though, otherwise she would be annoyed, and remind me of these things at least 3 times a day.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Bluemofia said:
Aren't Buddhists atheist??
Homie
Anti-Lefty
In theory, that is how it started anyway. But it has drifted towards god-worship, just look at the buddhist temples, the buddha statue is brought gifts/sacrifices and worshipped like a god.warpus said:
Homie said:Said previously by me:
Thanks for the constructive addition to the discussion carlos.
so you admitted a priori that your claim is worth nothing - maybe, if you'd read post one, you'd see that it is EXACTLY this kind of creationist arguing that pisses me off.
So thank you for such a constructive addition to the worthlessness of religious argumentation. You provided a prime example.
Homie
Anti-Lefty
But I wasn't arguing creation with that example, we were talking about miracles, so how have I provided you an example of creationist arguing when I wasn't even arguing creation?carlosMM said:so you admitted a priori that your claim is worth nothing - maybe, if you'd read post one, you'd see that it is EXACTLY this kind of creationist arguing that pisses me off.
So thank you for such a constructive addition to the worthlessness of religious argumentation. You provided a prime example.
In fact, I wasn't even arguing, I was having a civil discussion with MrCynical and other posters.
So what was the purpose of these last posts of yours?
Why are you arguing mircales in a thread on creationist's arguments if it isn't?Homie said:But I wasn't arguing creation with that example, we were talking about miracles, so how have I provided you an example of creationist arguing when I wasn't even arguing creation?
lemme guess: because creationism is religion, and any reasonable defence of it requires belief in miracles.
Thus, either YOU went off topic, or you pürovided an excellent example of the kind of argument ('God did it, but science cannot explain it') I was adressing: bad stupid illogical rethorics in order to blow smoke.
which either (see above) miracles ARE part of creatioist argumentation, or, (see above again) they belong elsewhere.
what was the purpose of that ad hominem of yours?
Your line of argumentation here is trying to discredit science. That is a common method of creationists, and I counter it whenever and wherever I see it.
You were honest enough (and get a big
for that from me) to admit - even a priori - that you have no proof - but isn't countering 'claims in absence or conrtrary to proof' exactly what this thread is about?thank you for the PM, btw. You have an answer.
Jeeez Carlos, Bill .... c'mon .... play nice
Your shouting prevented Homie from seeing my question ...
Your shouting prevented Homie from seeing my question ...
This is what I think about miracles:
Miracles are never contradictions of natural law Even ones like walking on water don't defy the law of gravity so much as appeal to higher laws, just like an airplane does when it flies. The difference here is that these higher laws are beyond the ability of humans to even observe, let alone use. Most don't even have to go that far. A miracle is simply divine intervention in human life, usually by dealing with probability.
So a person can be healed by completely natural processes, but it is still a miracle as I understand it if God had a hand in whether that person beat the odds or not. And it still fits in with my view of God if He chooses not to intervene, but to let nature take its course and for the person to die.
And the only reason Thomas got to see evidence is because as an apostle, he needed to be an eyewitness to the resurrection of Christ. Everyone else has to rely on faith, unless it fits in with God's plan that they get unambiguous direct evidence of God's existence.
Miracles are never contradictions of natural law Even ones like walking on water don't defy the law of gravity so much as appeal to higher laws, just like an airplane does when it flies. The difference here is that these higher laws are beyond the ability of humans to even observe, let alone use. Most don't even have to go that far. A miracle is simply divine intervention in human life, usually by dealing with probability.
So a person can be healed by completely natural processes, but it is still a miracle as I understand it if God had a hand in whether that person beat the odds or not. And it still fits in with my view of God if He chooses not to intervene, but to let nature take its course and for the person to die.
And the only reason Thomas got to see evidence is because as an apostle, he needed to be an eyewitness to the resurrection of Christ. Everyone else has to rely on faith, unless it fits in with God's plan that they get unambiguous direct evidence of God's existence.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Eran of Arcadia said:
Walking on water does violate plenty of laws. If you could walk on water without contradicting some sort of natural/physical law - then it wouldn't be a miracle.
That's the whole point - a miracle is an event that contradicts a natural/physical law.
A flying airplane is not a miracle because we know what makes it fly - we designed it for the specific purpose of flying - without contradicting any sort of physical law.
If Jesus walked on water without contradicting any physical/natural laws - then that wasn't a miracle - it was an illusion - two completely different things.
warpus said:
No, you missed the point because you assume that humans know, or can know, all of the laws of nature. An airplane can fly because there are certain laws regarding lift and propulsion that "override" gravity, so to speak, but the law of gravity is never defied.
My point about miracles is that by the same token, there are laws regarding, say, walking on water that only God understands or can use, and that can only apply in a few situations, but they are not "breaking" any laws. Miracles, in my view, are not unscientific, just not explainable in scientific terms. And like I said, I don't view miracles as the breaking of physical laws but as divine intervention into human affairs, working within those laws.
So anyone can walk on water, as long as he does a silly walk? 
I think you're taking the miracle out of the miracle here. Trying to reconcile the miracle with the mundane has always been a losing proposition. See, for instance, the walking on water thread in the History forum.
I think you're taking the miracle out of the miracle here. Trying to reconcile the miracle with the mundane has always been a losing proposition. See, for instance, the walking on water thread in the History forum.
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