Crime & Punishment

[Hydromancerx]

It's deeply entrenched in the overall game balance so I'm not sure it'd be advised but I can look into making one that we'd hide from the usual player. You'd then have a lot of pointless buildings and such... with some effort, the option could be used to hinge numerous building 'replacement' definitions to flesh out the option and rebalance the game as a whole. But it'd be a mod-mod of its own right.

Honestly I don't find it all that hard to work with so I'm a little confused here what the fuss is all about. The property tracking itself is still a little wonky, will agree there. Still haven't quite managed to put a finger on what actually makes it so difficult to follow as a player. Perhaps some improvements on display would help there. But I'd have to 100% understand the math to do that and at the moment I don't. Might be growing to be time to really read the code on this. Since some of the confusions I faced on code math have been sorted out for me I might be able to now.

I also am looking forward to crime building emergence not having to be so static as it is now which will happen when I can get around to the reprogramming of the ADVANCED disease structure.

Well what we could do is have all the crime auto-build buildings put into a single mod folder and then have a setting that turns them off. Crime property would still be in the mod but it would no longer generate any auto-build buildings.

However I have enough on my plate right now and don't really feel like moving all that stuff just because of Joe's whim.

 

[Koshling]

Well what we could do is have all the crime auto-build buildings put into a single mod folder and then have a setting that turns them off. Crime property would still be in the mod but it would no longer generate any auto-build buildings.

However I have enough on my plate right now and don't really feel like moving all that stuff just because of Joe's whim.

Would need to override the AI weight for the crime property to make sure it was 0 when the consequences are turned off, or else the AI will still fight it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As Huge as Crime and Punishment is becoming in this mod I personally would Love an Option to turn Crime Off. Just like the Option to turn Nukes Off.

I believe the magnitude of Micro management has broken even this avowed micromanager's desire to micro at these current and coming levels.

Maybe I'm losing my love for C2C? Over-saturation?

JosEPh

The problem is, with the current set of buildings, cities can grow to colossal sizes without a serious system to bound them. Crime and diseases (pollution? am not sure - up to renaissance it haven't given me any negative statistics) are some approaches for such system. But indeed they do quite poorly in my sense. I would switch the crime for something like the order, which would have a direct impact on riots and rebelliousness and would depend on happiness, not only generate it. If you would be able to make your people happy, you would not need to care about controlling this marker as much as the crime.

From my perspective the problem is that at times I have no idea what is going on. In part this is because I forget to flip to the Properties tab. However the fact that a crime level (actual value) may be OK at one point and destroy your economy the next eg the turn you get Currency, makes it much harder to grasp what is going on. At least with Revolutions a reported value always means the same thing.

Not only that but the same value for crime is OK in one city but not in another!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Maybe autumn depression?

Could be. Or RL or many other things.

But I also, when Crime was introduced into the Mod, asked specifically if it would become the dominant factor and gameplay influence. I was told no. But it actually has. Now tie it all together with Disease and Pollution and the basic CIV IV BtS game style and even Victiory conditions are vastly changed (which many ppl here said wanted). But in doing so things like (for example among many) a Cultural Victory is/has been long diluted to insignificance. And along the Victory Conditions line I very much dislike the Mastery Victory Option refuse to use it any more. IMO it has helped destroy the basic CIV conditions except for Conquest. Now there is a movement afoot to destroy the way Religions work (which IMHO was one of the crowning achievements for C2C outside the Preh Era, sorry DH I really do like how the religions work now and have worked in the past. I'm not a fan of limiting the choices or removing the Monasteries influence in Science, Culture etc.. that some of these other players want)

Prehistoric Era is still Fun to play, but even it has been diluted with too much stuff overall and way too early and overly heavy Crime influence.Now add in the Disease and coupled with it. We used to worry more about the neanderthal's and barbarian's menace and hunting instead of microing Crime and Health to start the game (example 0 level health at game start gives the disease Common Cold so you are saddled with -health to start throw in all the associated and tacked onto the earliest bldgs and you Have to deal with rampant . Once the hits 50 then you get 3 more diseases thrown on top with much more added on) But now neanders are an after thought as is the barbs. And animal spawns and hunting units have been whacked/twisted/turned inside out all for "new" intricacies in strategic play that are not very conducive to strategic play (promotional over abundance is one clear cut example).

By the time I reach early Medieval the Mod is becoming a bore to play. You Must have 10 TW and 10 healers in every city above size 10. This gets old too. Coupled with TW/Guard promotions that still are not displayed correctly or implemented properly by the game, actually confusing as **ll most of the time (or just flat out broken by not so good implementation).

I'll get flack for this post from those that like to personally attack me and my opinions. I expect it.

But C2C is fading for me, the mantra "Just have Fun" doesn't always work anymore. I've started 3 games in the last month and can't get enough interest up to get them out of the Preh era. Only koshling's continued game refinements keeps me updating the SVN. Thank you koshling very much for your excellent and much appreciated work on this hobby of ours.

Maybe I am just depressed with all the bloat in C2C now. Even if Hydro thinks it's only a whim. And I fully understand I am only 1 opinion and most of the time the lone dissenting one at that.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

While I think that Crime is an important feature of the game and helps to balance things out, I also don't want to micromanage it so much. When I get Town Watchmen, I usually build 5 in every city and let them stay there. This costs a lot of money, but on the other hand I don't need to check my crime every turn. Also, the AI govener builds +crime buildings a lot, which seems wrong to me. I don't want negative buildings "autobuild", but I also don't want to manage 50+ cities every turn. I'd still prefer it if you could settle down town watchman and healers as specialists, this would be definetly a step in the right direction.

 

[Yudishtira]

While I think that Crime is an important feature of the game and helps to balance things out, I also don't want to micromanage it so much. When I get Town Watchmen, I usually build 5 in every city and let them stay there. This costs a lot of money, but on the other hand I don't need to check my crime every turn. Also, the AI govener builds +crime buildings a lot, which seems wrong to me. I don't want negative buildings "autobuild", but I also don't want to manage 50+ cities every turn. I'd still prefer it if you could settle down town watchman and healers as specialists, this would be definetly a step in the right direction.

By the time I've got 50 cities, a turn takes me 5 hours and I thus tend to only play one a day. You can't automate anything!

I do kind of wish I could play the game quicker. But I'm not calling for that to change because:
a) I would rather the cool stuff that the modders are enthusiastic for gets done instead; and
b) I'm not sure it would improve the game, and it might make it a lot worse - possibly even not worth playing.

Certainly if there were advisers and governors and automations to look after all the constraints on my civ, I would have to turn them off or find another mod to play.

 

[n47]

@JosEPh_II, oh my, you are quite grouchy, aren't you? Here take a present.

Even if Hydro thinks it's only a whim.

I'm not sure, he thinks that. People just run away from uncomfortable claims. Especially if they are reasonable. -- Actually, it would be an enormous improvement not only for C2C, if people could do something about this.

I've started 3 games in the last month and can't get enough interest up to get them out of the Preh era.

Same here. ... Ok, I have only 1 game. ... And I am in Medieval. But also haven't played for a month. Yup, this game starts getting boring, something after the prehistory. I believe it may be a bad proportion of how much you must do, to the results you get. And also predictable and not too creative AI. -- As I've said, this game should be directed at multiplayer, as an enjoyable level of AI is probably beyond our scope. Or at least, enjoyable for hands as we.

And yeah, I think also crime is to absorbing. If we would switch it, at least partially, to global level, it could be more bearable. That's why I proposed to make it dependent on happiness (and switch the name to the order, as I don't like word crime ). Happiness you can control globally by the culture, if you have proper buildings. Besides, it could bring more meaning to the culture, which it actually lacks.

@Faustmouse, I needs to have something like 10+ of guards in bigger cities and the number is still growing.

I do kind of wish I could play the game quicker. But I'm not calling for that to change because:
a) I would rather the cool stuff that the modders are enthusiastic for gets done instead

Do you mean new buildings? I actually can't see any coolness with adding 10 001st building, which brings next , same like the 10 000 before.

b) I'm not sure it would improve the game, and it might make it a lot worse - possibly even not worth playing.

Certainly if there were advisers and governors and automations to look after all the constraints on my civ, I would have to turn them off or find another mod to play.

How about building order schemes? You could plan the order of building by yourself, save it in a scheme and then assign schemes to your cities. And eventually put things in the middle in city queues, when you would need something at the moment.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

By the time I reach early Medieval the Mod is becoming a bore to play. You Must have 10 TW and 10 healers in every city above size 10. This gets old too. Coupled with TW/Guard promotions that still are not displayed correctly or implemented properly by the game, actually confusing as **ll most of the time (or just flat out broken by not so good implementation).

Interesting, I know I play on a lower difficulty level (Noble) but I never have more than one TW in a city until the classic period when I add the second TW and first healer. I then add an extra TW and healer in the late renaissance or industrial period and I don't have problems with crime.

Personally, as I have stated earlier, crime should not exist until "Code of Laws" has been studied. I also think we should be concentration on one major challenge per period to give the period its flavour. So that the prehistoric is about hunting and the beginnings of civilizations. With latter eras being more about other stuff eg religion, diplomacy, trade and so on.

Now there is a movement afoot to destroy the way Religions work (which IMHO was one of the crowning achievements for C2C outside the Preh Era, sorry DH I really do like how the religions work now and have worked in the past. I'm not a fan of limiting the choices or removing the Monasteries influence in Science, Culture etc.. that some of these other players want)(

Firstly I greatly dislike the way C2C monasteries have been moved away from how they were in BtS.

Secondly I am beginning to hate the race for religions. Why is there such a thing when in the real world each nation/culture developed its own religion and then influences between religions, both peaceful and belligerent changed and molded them?

How about building order schemes? You could plan the order of building by yourself, save it in a scheme and then assign schemes to your cities. And eventually put things in the middle in city queues, when you would need something at the moment.

Isn't this what AIAndy provided way back when he added building lists?

 

[n47]

Isn't this what AIAndy provided way back when he added building lists?

Do you mean building queues in the city view or something I am not aware of?

 

[DRJ]

Next to the BUG-button (grasshopper) there is a hammer-button. You can set lists of buildings that, if loaded via shortcut in a city are executed.
This helps if you have a large empire and you want all your industrial cities to build like a powerplant, a sanitation system and then an airport. You then go in a city press the short-cut and don't have to pick all the buildings in the queue for every city. Saves a lot of time for advanced games.

 

[n47]

@DRJ, probably something like this. But do you expect players will know about that, without any explanation, by them own? There should be a message linked somehow to the list screen, what it is and how to use it.

And I still don't get it, how to choose a list in the city screen. What short-cut?

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Joseph: It's hard to address your post as it covers a lot of ground. Summarized it sounds like: I don't like that the mod is changing the game, adding new challenges I'm not used to working with, making it impossible to master and how the mod adds too much detail - this shouldn't be a simulation of a developing humanity but rather a strategy game that caters to the strategies you wish to utilize.

I realize that's not what you mean.

But my point is that we may need to have you break apart some of that rant into direct feedback on the specific issues.

I'm feeling a bit like you are about the religions and really hope we can find a way to optionalize things there... I LOVE the current religious structure too but I'm also intrigued by DH's plan as well so I'd like to retain both.

Crime... I do see some issues with it. The static emergence of crime buildings as a direct result of crime levels seems... lacking in depth. And yes, some games experience overwhelming crime levels and perhaps we should consider doubling the TW countercrime benefits or increasing the anti-crime values from buildings to compensate. Of course, as DH points out, the game difficulty level is a big factor there.

Early strategies... they haven't all come together to form a fully cohesive vision so I'm not accepting that feedback yet. Promos will be reviewed and while I'm not entirely sure if what I have in mind would help or harm, I do think it will be improved. In saying we have too many, are we simply getting to the point that you can't remember what all the promotions are and what they do and that's what's frustrating you here? Or is it that you feel there should be an obvious best way to pick them? (In which case why have promotions at all... upgrades should be sufficient.) Or is it that you feel some are irrational in design (this is where I would agree... some are. And the selection tree needs a lot of pruning and refining.)

And do you feel that perhaps... just maybe... one of the problems we have is that we CANNOT get on top of our buildings in our cities now because the ratio of production to research has been tweaked to force you to always feel like your production is running WAAAY behind the curve? (This is what frustrates me as the eras progress... I really like being able to rest some cities on research or gold or fodder military for a bit between new buildings - now I feel I just miss out on a lot.) I'm hoping that if we get Slick's option to work we can make one that also goes the OTHER way and makes things cheaper to build rather than more expensive.

Now, mind you, I'm not attacking... I do understand you're giving us a general impression. I'm not sure all the things you target here are exactly at fault for that general impression but I get what you're expressing... simple frustration that the game loses some appeal. I think someone mentioned the AI and yes, it must improve to maintain the mod's appeal in later eras... the naval thing recently added was a huge plus.

 

[DRJ]

Crime... I do see some issues with it. The static emergence of crime buildings as a direct result of crime levels seems... lacking in depth. And yes, some games experience overwhelming crime levels and perhaps we should consider doubling the TW countercrime benefits or increasing the anti-crime values from buildings to compensate. Of course, as DH points out, the game difficulty level is a big factor there.

I don't know about difficulty, since I only play deity. Even in my 20-something cities I only need 5-6 TW as my specialized military city churned out lots of level-5 promoted TW during mercenary civic. Then, during pacifism you have all you need and keeping crime below 100 works with additional TWs here and there.

However, I like the above statement very much to be able to settle TW in cities. Would be good for AI to try to attack cities more regularily as well, as they don't see like 10 units stationed in there but only 1 or 2.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Personally, as I have stated earlier, crime should not exist until "Code of Laws" has been studied. I also think we should be concentration on one major challenge per period to give the period its flavour. So that the prehistoric is about hunting and the beginnings of civilizations. With latter eras being more about other stuff eg religion, diplomacy, trade and so on.

Even before Code of Laws there must have been Tribal Laws. Ones that can banish a person from a village. Even the great apes have cultural taboos that will get an individual shunned or even physically hurt. Note that such primitive culture only effects individuals and not 3rd parties like with a judge. See here ...

Rob a bank and it won't be the teller who sentences you to jail, but rather a judge. This is known as third-party punishment, in which individuals punish violators even when the violation doesn’t directly affect them, and it’s critical to the maintenance of cooperation in human societies. But dominant chimpanzees, who dish out punishment when stolen from, turn a blind eye unless the theft directly affects them, according to a new study. Researchers gave captive chimps the chance to punish those who stole food. In one experiment, the "actor" chimp watched as a "thief" pulled food away from a "victim." The actor could then push a button to release a trapdoor in the cage, causing the food to fall out of reach of the thief. Dominant actors punished thieves who stole from them, but not those who stole from others, even when they were related to the victim, the researchers report online today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The findings suggest that third-party punishment evolved in humans after we diverged from our closest living relatives.

Source

In fact much of chimp society is based around favors. Such as if you groom me I will give you food. Thus if some one steals food from someone, the individual who has been stolen from get upset and attempt to punish the individual who stole the food. Thus showing that a theft is a crime that comes even before humans were humans.

 

[Il Principe]

Question which I think asked already once upon a time, but forgot the answer:
Are crimes civic dependent?
Like the Tech "Currency" enables forgery as a crime. But if you stick to barter as you economic civic there is no currency to forge, so the crime shouldn´t apply.

And totally unrelated: Could crime be linked to a cities rev index? Meaning a high rev index would raise crime, or the other way round? Both make sense in a way, but for gameplay only one can be taken, else it would lead to a hard to escape spiral.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Like the Tech "Currency" enables forgery as a crime. But if you stick to barter as you economic civic there is no currency to forge, so the crime shouldn´t apply.

One could make a knock off of anything. Fake shells, fake gold, fake gems, that "sheep" that barks .

 

[LumenAngel]

The true problem is not really crime or disease. The true problem is is medieval era cities grow far too fast. And because crime increase a lot with population, it's hard to manage.
I think we need a building giving like -0.25 crime/population in medieval era and one giving -0.5/population in industrial era, the number of anti-crime units needed is far too big.

Maybe increase/add some anti-crime promotion too. I think some "-X% chance of revolt " prom can give some Crime bonus (like bard prom)

 

[Il Principe]

One could make a knock off of anything. Fake shells, fake gold, fake gems, that "sheep" that barks .

True
But that kind of forgery would not have currency as a tech dependency

It was just the first example coming to mind. I would think a caste or feudal system might have some caste/class related crimes that are definetely not present in a communist ( proletariat) society.

 

[n47]

And totally unrelated: Could crime be linked to a cities rev index? Meaning a high rev index would raise crime, or the other way round? Both make sense in a way, but for gameplay only one can be taken, else it would lead to a hard to escape spiral.

That is one reason, why I thought about switching crime into order storing. It is more general and can include both crime and revolutionary acts. -- The high order makes less possible as well crime as rev. actions. And inversely.

 

[n47]

It was just the first example coming to mind. I would think a caste or feudal system might have some caste/class related crimes that are definetely not present in a communist ( proletariat) society.

Princess f*cking.