Crime Revisited

[Thunderbrd]

Can we at least stick with the previous ground rule that among crime and disease, anything over 0 means there IS a crime or a disease? Seems just illogical if we don't.

Otherwise I'm completely open to all sorts of suggestions and proposals in both arenas.

I'm looking at doing some balance work myself here - but not to crimes and diseases themselves but rather to the units that control them. There's a few things I'd like to do to redesign a little. Not drastic.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have a single SAX Error in Assets\.....\SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml: '--' sequence is illegal at line 5363. How do I get line numbers to show up in either Notepad or wordpad. Do they show in regular xml? I've been using Notepad or Wordpad to edit the 2 files needed for this modmod.

@TB,
What previous ground rules?

Crime is starting to generate from pop alone by the end of turn 1. Just because an Individual Crime "Building" does not show at min level 1 at game start does not stop Crimes progression. Neither is it "illogical" if a Crime "Building" does not show up immediately at minCrime level 1 at game start.

What is illogical and wrong is thinking Soliciting (minCrime level 1) starts when the game starts. Soliciting which is Prereq Tech'ed at Trade is in the Ancient Era! So thinking that C2C starts off with Soliciting (minCrime level 1 and the Only Crime in the mod with this level by the way) at Game start is erroneous in itself. It never has.

The 1st Crime encountered in C2C in Preh Era is Pickpocketing at Personal Adornment at minCrime level 35. Unless you have a crime level in your game that has reached 275 when you Tech Scavenging. Or Crime levels 515, 525, or 700 before you Tech Gathering. Do you have those levels that early in your games?

These individual Crimes are but just really "icing" on this cake called Crime. They are Goad pricks for letting Crime reach their level. They can and do hurt but they are Not the main crime generators. They Flavor the "Hurts" that come from Crime Property and it's many "generators" besides population..

JosEPh

 

[Toffer90]

I have a single SAX Error in Assets\.....\SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml: '--' sequence is illegal at line 5363. How do I get line numbers to show up in either Notepad or wordpad. Do they show in regular xml? I've been using Notepad or Wordpad to edit the 2 files needed for this modmod.

download Notepad++ it's just plain better. You can try ctrl+g which is "go to line" function in notepad++; I'm almost sure it would work in regular notepad too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@TB,
What previous ground rules?

Crime is starting to generate from pop alone by the end of turn 1. Just because an Individual Crime "Building" does not show at min level 1 at game start does not stop Crimes progression. Neither is it "illogical" if a Crime "Building" does not show up immediately at minCrime level 1 at game start.

At the beginning of the game isn't exactly what I'm thinking about here. Not that an unhappiness would hurt at that stage since your capital can't be unhappy on the earliest civics right? Or has that changed now... I dunno... haven't worried about early unhappiness in a long time either way.

I think its just that 'generally speaking' the properties should be a boolean where if you have more than 0 you have a growing problem. It's the basic sense of trying to reach the target of 0 or less in your control efforts that I would like to support. Of course crime can be ignored at first... what can you do about it anyhow except to set your town watch to buildup against crime as soon as you can. Gives you at least 1 pt of crime control early.

What I mean about there never being a crime until some who knows what value above 0 being illogical is that it means you have to figure out what that level is by looking through all the crimes to find the lowest level of concern and then target for THAT or lower as opposed to just the ease of knowing its 0 or less that will keep you from any ill effects.

Truth be told it's a little annoying that some kind of early crime like 'Selfishness' or 'Hoarding' or something doesn't start at 1 from immediately in the Prehistoric so that there's at least some kind of cause to care as early as you can about keeping crime under wraps from go. I saw birds the other day acting extremely selfish and fighting off those around them to keep them from getting the bit of food they'd found. It's stuff that's been happening since long before we could call ourselves human.

What we'd make it cause I can't say for sure. -1 Food could be interesting. Just another something to overcome to get to growth would be nice.

 

[Arakhor]

download Notepad++ it's just plain better. You can try ctrl+g which is "go to line" function in notepad++; I'm almost sure it would work in regular notepad too.

Absolutely. That's the only program I use to search the XML files and "Find in Files" works like a charm.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Got notepad++ and it's a world of difference. Learned a lot today with it. Some simple <!-- and --> problems that would've taken me weeks to figure out and correct with the way I was doing it. I might have even quit trying.

Hopefully 1st version will be posted later today.

I swear Hydro pasted the Crime Property on Everything he did! My simple changes will look like it's easier in the Preh Era, with less Crime initiated. Now down from 14 to 10 and several others moved to later Preh techs, but once you get past that....... Many had their iMinCrime level reduced and the ceiling is now 1000 instead of 1500.

Sidenote just in the last couple of days some new players and some not so new are trying to figure out the numbers for Crime in the City screen. You can't figure out Crime from the City screen numbers. It's more like a barometer. Keep adding Anti crime Bldgs and/or units till you see movement.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Wow... yeah, Notepad++ and winGrep are essential modder tools you'd go nuts without imo.

I found this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=449 that discusses the mathematics of the property system in depth.


So, Joe, I know you're probably trying hard to think of a response but do you understand why I feel it's important to have a crime and a disease established to pick up at 1? The whole 'is/is not' point?

 

[JosEPh_II]

1st version is posted in the OP.

Changelog sort of:

List of crimes Removed:
Car Chase
Corporate Manslaughter
Ponzi Schemes
Power Struggles
Rogue Mercenaries
Stock Market Rigging
Toilet Papering

Crimes with Prereq Tech changes:
Bribery from Barter to Code of Laws
Extortion from Currency to Usury
Fighting from Warfare to Conduct
Gang Warfare from Warfare to Urban Culture
Identity Theft from Personal Adornments to Computers
Kidnapping fron None to Slavery
Littering from Sanitation to Modern Sanitation
Mugging from Scavenging to Barter
Shoplifting from Barter to Trade

Crimes with iHealth , iHappiness, and IGlobalHappiness changes:
Black Market -4 to -2; same; same
Car Bombing -3 to -4; same; same
Fighting -3 to -1; same; same
Gang Warfare -12 to -8; same; -6 to -3
Kidnapping same; -3 to -4; same
Murder -6 to -8, -6 to -8; same
Rape -2 to -3
Rioting -10 to -6; same; -4 to -3
School Shootings -3 to -4; -4 to -6; same
Disease iHealth and iHappiness changes:
Leprosy -2 to -4; -1 to -4
Small Pox same; -2 to -5

Gang Warfare also had Property Crime/turn reduced from 40 to 20
Littering had Disease Property/turn reduced from 5 to 1
Rape had Disease Property/turn reduced from 10 to 5
Vigillantism had iCommerceModifier ( 4th <iCommerce>) reduced from -20 to -5

There were several other small changes I forgot to write down.

I still have some Crimes that I will later adjust like for example Sectarian Violence which has some really staggeringly high numbers, e.g. Crime/turn 800! This number would paralyze your Empire if you reach the level to trigger it once you've reached the Era it requires to be activated.

EDIT: Crime Property Diffuser reduced from 20 to 15. This small change of 5% may be the biggest change of all in this modmod.

JosEPh

 

[Arakhor]

Did you alter any of the localisations (the TXT_KEY strings)?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Did you alter any of the localizations (the TXT_KEY strings)?

No I have not. And I'm not sure what you mean by "localizations".

I still have not gotten winGrep yet either. Been a busy afternoon in the Cornfields (just finished picking a 5 gal bucket of sweet corn ).

JosEPh

 

[Arakhor]

You can read about text localisation in the link, though I am impressed that merely quoting my post appeared to change my use of the 's' to a 'z'.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You can read about text localisation in the link, though I am impressed that merely quoting my post appeared to change my use of the 's' to a 'z'.

Well That was a Fun read!

And when I went to copy paste localisation from your quote spell checker threw up. So I clicked on what it wanted.

And I just finished supper which included some of that delicious Sweet Corn! :Yumyum:

I also got a version of grepWin 64.



JosEPh

 

[Arakhor]

Got notepad++ and it's a world of difference.

I also got a version of grepWin 64.

Awww, our little Joey is all grown up.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Awww, our little Joey is all grown up.

Impertinent whipper snapper!

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Back to the modmod, you will find this 1st version can be a bit rough once you hit Ancient Era. The number of buildings to counter the "Crimes" is low and the that is tacked on (by Hydro) can cause problems too. Not enough giving buildings, etc. to keep reasonable if you let Crime level get above 150+.

This trend will carry over into the Classical as well. So don't be surprised if your and seem more exaggerated than before. Especially if you've played "loose" with keeping Crime under control before.

When the 3 others that have D/L'd the modmod give any feedback it will help point out the Crimes that need adjusted.

And finally @ T-Brd,

So, Joe, I know you're probably trying hard to think of a response but do you understand why I feel it's important to have a crime and a disease established to pick up at 1? The whole 'is/is not' point?

Sorry T-brd but it's Not important. The Crimes do not need at least even 1 to be at minCrime level of 1. Crime is there anyway even if the Crimes were all moved to show up at level 100 or above. And same goes for Disease too.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry T-brd but it's Not important. The Crimes do not need at least even 1 to be at minCrime level of 1. Crime is there anyway even if the Crimes were all moved to show up at level 100 or above. And same goes for Disease too.

If crimes start showing up at 100 or above, wouldn't it then be appropriate to simply re-adjust the whole chart so that all crimes are adjusted by 100 so they start right at positive values? Isn't that what a positive value should mean? That there is an amount of crime taking place?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Neither, there are 15 Crimes from 10 to 100 spread over different Eras.

JosEPh

@T-brd,
I quoted myself to reiterate that the 1st Crimes in different eras start showing their effects at minCrime level 10. And that there are a total of 15 Crimes in the 10 to 100 range. It is not necessary that any crime Has to show up at minCrime level 1. Same for Disease. The way the Crime properties are set up you will be at the 1st "visible" Crime in a matter of a few turns anyway. I repeat myself, There is no good need or reason to have a Crime show up at level 1, except as a showpiece. Crime will not stop showing up if there is Not a crime at min level 1.

If crimes start showing up at 100 or above, wouldn't it then be appropriate to simply re-adjust the whole chart so that all crimes are adjusted by 100 so they start right at positive values? Isn't that what a positive value should mean? That there is an amount of crime taking place?

And why the fuss over a setting on a modmod that has a total of 3 D/L's?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

except as a showpiece.

That's exactly what I'm asking for there to be. Nothing too impacting or harmful. Just an annoyance to those who want to strive for perfection (me included.) I just simply feel that positive should mean 'is crime'. Otherwise I feel the meaning of 0 loses relatability.

And why the fuss over a setting on a modmod that has a total of 3 D/L's?

Mostly cuz I think in all other ways its brilliant and I want to see it adopted into the main with that one caveat being my only request for that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There are two things being talked about here.

1) The crime property which is "just" a value that flows between plots.

2) Buildings that reflect the effects of the level of the crime property.

I have no problem with there being a range about zero where there is crime but it is to insignificant to affect society.

I would have large -ve buildings that represent a stifling of creativity or some such. Represented by - and or

 

[Thunderbrd]

There are two things being talked about here.

1) The crime property which is "just" a value that flows between plots.

I'm just of the opinion, and it is one opinion so it's good to hear from others, that there must be a line where there is crime, represented by buildings, below which there 'is not' crime and that this line must be as obvious as 0.

2) Buildings that reflect the effects of the level of the crime property.

It's hard to express that there 'is crime' without at least something there. Even if it's a pretty insignificant something.

I have no problem with there being a range about zero where there is crime but it is to insignificant to affect society.

At least we're getting votes on the subject. If I'm truly outnumbered I'll shut up on the matter.

I would have large -ve buildings that represent a stifling of creativity or some such. Represented by - and or

Many of us, myself included, have proposed that negative crime be considered a bad thing as well, calling it something like Oppression. Koshling said this would be nearly impossible to work with in the AI and I can see why. Perhaps I can eventually work something out there. I do think this would make the system much more interesting and yes, at that point I would totally understand and expect a modifier void margin on both sides of 0.